Does it have to be in the exact same place? If the war leaves an area uninhabitable, and they return to a different part of Gaza and are assisted in rebuilding there, would you say that’s ethnic cleansing or not?
The IDF has arrested soldiers who have targeted children or medical personnel. The issue in Gaza is that even children are used by Hamas. Teenagers are fighters. If an Israeli soldier shoots a 14 year old who is pointing a gun, the Palestinians scream about how Israel is killing children. Yes, technically it’s true - but it’s completely justified.
As far as stopping aid, Israel has provided a tremendous amount of aid. Much of it was stolen by Hamas. As I posted a while back, if there is reason to suspect that the aid will fall into the hands of the militants, then by law, Israel does not have to allow the aid in.
Look at the story I posted yesterday - Israel set up a new distribution system for the aid, which should keep it away from Hamas. Hamas is threatening Palestinians, saying that if they go to receive the aid from the Israelis, they will pay the price for it.
Israel is doing far more for the Palestinians than Hamas is. The Palestinians would be far better off under Israeli rule than Hamas rule. Israel doesn’t even want that - all they want is for the rulers of Gaza to live peacefully, without constantly trying to kill Israelis. Until Hamas is destroyed, the Palestinians will never have peace.
Is Hamas stealing all the food or some of the food?
Would starvation be decreased if more food was allowed in?
To answer these kinds of questions I think you would need to ask a neutral third party.
My understanding is that most neutral third parties would argue that there has been a lot of unnecessary starvation, but maybe you don’t consider any party neutral? I’m not sure?
For the most part, it doesn’t help to argue that Hamas is bad guys, because everybody already agrees they are bad guys. I’m positive people have repeated this throughout the thread, so I don’t entirely understand why you bring it up so often.
The only open question is whether Israel is bad guys. And it’s a difficult question, I think, for everybody.
And yes, I do see that Israel has set up a new distribution system for Aid, but so far it doesn’t’ look very effective. I guess we will see.
Until Hamas is destroyed, the Palestinians will never have peace.
The other open question is whether Hamas can be destroyed. (and exactly what evil deeds you need to commit to destroy them in a permanent way)
Hamas stole most of the food. There wasn’t actually any starvation, so I guess it wouldn’t decrease. There haven’t been actual neutral third parties allowed in to inspect - people just rely on the figures put out by Hamas.
I guess I would consider a body like amnesty international a neutral third party. And maybe we agree because you posted them earlier?
For their report–
The organization interviewed 212 people, including Palestinian victims and witnesses, local authorities in Gaza, healthcare workers, conducted fieldwork and analysed an extensive range of visual and digital evidence, including satellite imagery. It also analysed statements by senior Israeli government and military officials, and official Israeli bodies. On multiple occasions, the organization shared its findings with the Israeli authorities but had received no substantive response at the time of publication.
I guess I’d also consider various aid organizations and international doctors to be neutral their parties?
Have those individuals actually been on the ground, in Gaza, and investigated, with free reign to look wherever they want? Or were they relying on info from Hamas, and/or allowed to investigate a specific area, under escort from Palestinians?
We’ve seen that many Gazans have spoken out against Hamas, and were killed for doing so. If a person was being interviewed with a Hamas guard standing right there, would you trust what was said?
So, is your position simply that we can’t know what is happening in Gaza? We can’t know whether Israel is good or bad? Because both sides are untrustworthy and both sides block anyone neutral from finding the truth? All witnesses are biased, and all evidence is dubious?
People chanting death to the other side, may your village burn, your home will be ours. Israeli’s in Jerusalem. Sorts of things when hamas says them are proof of how evil they are right?
Did you read the whole article? Members of the Israeli government condemned it. Some of the people were arrested.
When comparable things happen in Gaza, the Palestinian perpetrators are hailed as heroes and receive a government stipend.
Let’s not forget that Jews are not allowed to pray at what is considered the holiest site to them.
I noted that earlier. There are some individuals, but I separated the individuals from the country itself, since the leaders and official positions do not seem to have the intent.
Ok fair, Israel’s finance minister said “They will be totally despairing, understanding that there is no hope and nothing to look for in Gaza, and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.”
If any Palestinians are alive anywhere in the world, then it can’t possibly be genocide. Or attempted genocide.
And if any Palestinians are still alive in Gaza, it can’t possibly be ethnic cleansing. Or attempted ethnic cleansing.
The wanton killing and starvation of Palestinians? The seizure of their land, the destruction of their personal property, the inflammatory rhetoric clearly intended to dehumanize and denigrate an entire group of people? Other stuff like that? Look, the fact is people hear and see that stuff constantly -maybe even especially as part of military commands - and sometimes they go rogue en masse and things get out of hand. That doesn’t mean the leaders or governing body endorses it even if it does nothing to stop it or hold those who commit those acts responsible, and it certainly doesn’t mean they’re trying to commit genocide.
They’re just … doing genocide-adjacent stuff, that’s totally different.
Oh, I never answered this. Although journalists are not allowed into Gaza, a lot of doctors have worked in Gaza and come back. So you could ask them. Obviously, they aren’t investigators, and their experience is limited to people who are dying, but they are closer to the action than we are. Although I suppose to some degree, you could argue that doctors are biased by their very desire to help.