2024-25 English Premier League discussion

The Sandbox Sports
202

Fulham snatched a well deserved draw. They have grown on me this season.

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203

The weather in Liverpool is terrible today. It snowed overnight and it has been a wet day today. Rashford isn’t even on the bench. I hope he saved money.

204

The way Nottingham has been playing is lots of fun. Nuno Espirito Santo deserves a lot of credit for turning this club around.

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205

Guessing that Liverpool fans would react negatively to Musk’s ownership?

206

Need to beat LIV, again, next week to have a shot.

207

Must see TV, and not paywalled here!

208

I now have Peacock, though I prefer to watch on my own time, and Peacock has a hell of a delay (several hours) between the live feed and a replay.
Not sure why streaming companies don’t allow me to watch a little delayed, like my TiVo used to. Or watch it at 1.5x speed, like my TiVo used to.
Also, Peacock has this weird “you don’t need to watch the first 3 minutes of the second half after watching the required commercials” bullshit. My TiVo did not have this “feature.”

209

Everton ownership: Good news everyone! Yes, I know you are going to play today, but we’ve decided to sack the coach. Truth is, we didn’t know about this Thursday “Cup” – I think that’s what it’s called – game. All games are on Sundays, right? And only one a week, right? Anywho, listen to your temporary coach and your team captain. They know what to do, until we fire them.

210

IIRC Forest also won the league in 78 or so after getting promoted to top tier then.

211

And that was immediately after being promoted, as opposed to NF this year and LEI nine (really??) years ago.
LEI was in danger of getting relegated after being promoted (were at the bottom at Christmas, but the following year they were at the top on Christmas), as were NF last year.

212

Got a bit of a treat today as a number of my cable tv sports channels showed the Fulham-Watford FA Cup match. Fulham won decisively much to the delight of my English SIL and his dad who was at the match today (season ticket holder).

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213

At least we won. Probably my last trip to Goodison.
It was a grand old stadium.

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214

Watched the Fulham game. Adama scored a great goal to finish off Leicester 2 nil. Leicester had chances but didn’t score.

Saw the highlights of the Liverpool game. Liverpool won 2 nil with Darwin scoring a brace.

215

It definitely looks like Liverpool will win the PL at this stage.

216

It looked like that a few weeks ago. Thanks for coming around.

217

I don’t see a gift link for this, but


Quotes within
218

Takeaways from this week

Liverpool looks solid. Arsenal blew big chance to gain. NF remains fun. City too little too late, time to stat pad Haaland. Spurs OMG.

Battle for Europe should be good with 4-8 being a one game spread and people not completely buying NF.

219

They would be flirting with relegation had they not won more games earlier in the season. Maybe they are saving themselves for the League Cup (although I expect Liverpool will lay a beating on them shortly).

221

Damnit, ESPN! You put the VAR Review article behind the paywall! They seem to think that the ARS red card was wrong, meanwhile the Referee is getting abused off the field.

222

How dare they! What were they thinking? (You may click below to find out, but it could look a little odd.)

The VAR Review: Explaining the Lewis-Skelly red card controversy

Dale Johnson Jan 27, 2025, 07:16 AM ET

Video Assistant Referee causes controversy every week in the Premier League, but how are decisions made, and are they correct?

After each weekend we take a look at the major incidents to examine and explain the process both in terms of VAR protocol and the Laws of the Game.

In this week’s VAR Review: Was Arsenal midfielder Myles Lewis-Skelly’s red card at Wolves as controversial as has been made out? Should Ipswich Town’s Julio Enciso had been sent off at Liverpool? And how does Manchester United’s Lisandro Martínez keep getting away with two-footed challenges?

Wolves 0-1 Arsenal

Possible red card overturn: Foul by Lewis-Skelly on Doherty

What happened: Arsenal won a corner in the 43rd minute. It was easily cleared high and away by the Wolverhampton Wanderers defence, but Matt Doherty picked up the loose ball on the edge of the box and looked to break forward. Myles Lewis-Skelly brought Doherty down, with referee Michael Oliver producing a red card for serious foul play. It was checked and cleared by the VAR, Darren England. (watch here)

VAR decision: Red card stands

VAR review: Some of the discourse around this red card has been ridiculous, even dubbed by one pundit as “the worst decision ever seen in Premier League football history.” It’s not even the worst this season (see the incorrect stoppage-time match-winning VAR penalty given to West Ham United against Manchester United).

With the over-the-top reaction, perhaps it’s no surprise that Oliver and his family have been subjected to “threats and abuse.” It’s possible to criticise an outcome without resorting to either hyperbole or attacks on referees, because there are clear grounds for the VAR to intervene and downgrade to a yellow card.

This should be looked as a wider assessment of serious foul play. If PGMOL wants to get tough on challenges that have endangered the safety of an opponent, this seems like a low bar to go in on.

There have been many worse challenges, perceived or otherwise, that haven’t resulted in a red card. Indeed, with the Premier League’s desire to have a higher-intensity game, players are far more likely to stay on the pitch than be sent off. It’s why this decision feels like such an outlier.

So what did Oliver see, and why did the VAR support him?

Arsenal’s players are furious with referee Michael Oliver after the red card for Myles Lewis-Skelly. Catherine Ivill - AMA/Getty Images

When Lewis-Skelly makes the challenge, he does so with absolutely no chance of winning the ball and it’s a deliberate attempt to take out an opponent. Oliver, who was very close to the incident, believed the initial contact was studs to Doherty’s shin as the Wolves player was running. These two aspects made Oliver believe the line was crossed and that the tackle could endanger the safety of an opponent. But sometimes a referee can be too close to an incident to make an accurate assessment.

How VAR protocol works is important to what happened next, and why the intervention was missed.

We can be pretty sure that this wouldn’t have been upgraded to a red had Oliver shown a yellow card; the original decision is so, so important. And if the referee gives an accurate description that can be backed up, the on-field call won’t be changed. But crucially, how you find that evidence can influence the outcome.

One free frame image would suggest Michael Oliver’s on-field decision was supportable. BBC

Indeed, only one red card has been overturned through VAR this season, when the referee wrongly thought West Ham United’s Guido Rodríguez had caught Southampton’s Kyle Walker-Peters with studs on shin when stretching into a challenge: It was a clear example of the official describing something different to the video evidence, as Rodríguez made only a small amount of contact on the toe of Walker-Peters’ boot.

So Oliver said he’d given Lewis-Skelly a red card primarily for initial contact above the ankle. The VAR had the video evidence to support this, so the red card was upheld.

But that told only a small part of the story in judging the tackle. Was the VAR too quick to support the on-field call once they had the freeze-frame image? After all, in isolation this appears damning – but such pictures usually do, because it removes all the context of force and intensity. It gives the impression of serious foul play rather than a trip, which was a more accurate assessment.

In truth, Myles Lewis-Skelly’s challenge on Matt Doherty was a trip rather than serious foul play. BBC

PGMOL will stand by this red card, as they did with the VAR dismissal of Christian Nþrgaard at Everton, believing the contact was high (the Brentford player caught goalkeeper Jordan Pickford on his knee) and dangerous. Nþrgaard, at least, was going for the ball while Lewis-Skelly’s only intention was to bring down an opponent. But an appeal against the three-match ban will be decided by an independent panel of ex-players, and not PGMOL.

Though, even with the outcry, there’s no guarantee Arsenal will win.

Nþrgaard and Bruno Fernandes, for his dismissal against Tottenham Hotspur in September, won their red card appeals by only two votes to one, when the media reaction would have suggested a unanimous decision. Which ex-players are on a disciplinary commission, including whether they were attackers or defenders, will always affect the outcome, and a result is never completely predictable. Even so, the criticism of this from former players has been to such a level that it’s difficult to see this appeal being rejected.

Gab & Juls react to Myles Lewis-Skelly’s red card for Arsenal against Wolves in the Premier League.

These kinds of red cards have actually been seen before, however, and in Arsenal games. While no two decisions are ever the same, there are similarities in nature.

In the north London derby in October 2022, Emerson Royal was dismissed after he caught Gabriel Martinelli on the shin with a needless challenge – though the Brazilian was by the touchline and not breaking forward.

Emerson Royal was sent off for a challenge on Gabriel Martinelli. Arsenal

And in October 2016, Granit Xhaka was shown a straight red card by Jon Moss for hacking down Swansea winger Modou Barrow as he tried to move down the wing on the halfway line.

Granit Xhaka hacked down Modou Barrow when he broke down the wing. Arsenal

Neither Spurs nor Arsenal appealed the decisions, and both served three-match bans.

Verdict: While PGMOL would like to back Oliver and the VAR’s decision, a yellow card is far more in keeping with how the game is refereed in the Premier League. João Gomes was shown a second yellow card later in this game, which was consistent with decision-making as contact was right on the top of the boot with both players making a challenge. But when Lewis-Skelly gets a straight red card for a tackle that usually only results in a yellow, and would never be upgraded to red on review, then you have to accept there are going to be questions about consistency.

The yellow card for JoĂŁo Gomes was more consistent with Premier League officiating. BBC

This is far from being the egregious decision it was painted as. But the red card should have been downgraded to yellow on review.

Liverpool 4-1 Ipswich

Possible red card: Challenge by Enciso on Endo

What happened: Julio Enciso had been on the pitch as a substitute for only two minutes when he launched into a high challenge on Liverpool midfielder Wataru Endo. Referee Michael Salisbury gave the Ipswich Town midfielder a yellow card for a reckless challenge, which was looked at by the VAR, Paul Tierney.

VAR decision: No red card.

Julio Enciso jumps into a challenge on Liverpool’s Wataru Endo. BBC

VAR review: Two weeks ago, Brighton & Hove Albion attacker JoĂŁo Pedro escaped a VAR red card when he jumped into Ipswich goalkeeper Christian Walton. The decision of yellow card by referee Tony Harrington was supported by the video referee, who just so happened to be Salisbury.

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The Premier League’s Key Match Incidents (KMI) Panel were split on a red card, voting 3-2 that a caution was sufficient and 5-0 against a VAR intervention.

Yet Enciso’s challenge was worse. It was higher, and leading with the hip into the upper body of Endo. It was much more like the VAR red card shown to Fulham attacker RaĂșl JimĂ©nez for a foul on Sean Longstaff last season. The VAR for that match was once again Salisbury.

Verdict: We’ve spent part of this article discussing PGMOL’s desire to protect player welfare with the nature of challenges, yet Enciso has gotten away with a booking for a tackle that resulted in a red card last season. While Jimenez jumped in slightly higher, Enciso crossed the line necessitating a VAR intervention for a red card.

RaĂșl JimĂ©nez was sent off on VAR review for jumping into Sean Longstaff last season. NBC

Fulham 0-1 Man United

Possible red card: MartĂ­nez challenge on Traore

What happened: Fulham were on the attack in the 60th minute when winger Adama TraorĂ© collided with Man United defender Lisandro MartĂ­nez on the edge of the area. Referee Anthony Taylor thought it was just a coming together, but the nature of MartĂ­nez’s tackle was checked by the VAR, Jarred Gillett.

VAR decision: No red card.

Lisandro Martínez jumps into a tackle on Adama Traoré with two feet. TNT Sports

VAR review: It’s the second time this season that Martínez has made a challenge when jumping in with both feet off the ground.

Guidance on serious foul play challenges, followed by UEFA and the Premier League, states that if a challenge ends before it reaches the opponent, then it’s impossible to endanger their safety. This is the only reason Martínez has escaped a red card.

Yet if we compare it to the Lewis-Skelly incident, it doesn’t seem right there’s no action against a player who has jumped towards an opponent with both feet off the ground. But it’s the intended interpretation.

When Martínez made the same challenge on Crystal Palace’s Daichi Kamada, the KMI Panel had no choice but to unanimously say it was correct, as the referee followed the guidance. But there was no doubt about the true feelings of the ex-players who sit on the panel.

“The action viewed in isolation is a ridiculous challenge,” the panel noted. “Martinez is so fortunate that he doesn’t contact Kamada. The on-field decision was supported as correct on the basis that the action by Martinez had been completed and no contact was made, however the panel felt very strongly that this type of challenge has no place on the pitch.”

Verdict: This cannot be a red card based upon how the serious foul play law is applied, yet it feels like a get-out-of-jail free card for Martínez to keep making the same challenge 
 until he finally does land on an opponent. It should have been a free kick and a booking.

Lisandro Martínez made a similar challenge on Crystal Palace’s Daichi Kamada earlier this season. BBC

Brighton 0-1 Everton

Possible penalty: Handball by Veltman

What happened: Beto chased a ball into the box with Brighton & Hove Albion defender Joël Veltman, with referee Tim Robinson awarding a corner when the ball went behind. The Everton attacker appealed for handball, and it was checked by the VAR, Graham Scott (watch here).

VAR decision: Penalty, scored by Iliman Ndiaye.

Joël Veltman appears to make a deliberate motion to handle the ball, leading to a VAR penalty. BBC

VAR review: There was clear evidence of Veltman making a deliberate movement of the arm toward the ball.

Verdict: It would have been a huge surprise had the VAR not advised a penalty with the evidence of the camera behind the goal, which was on the referee’s blind side.

Crystal Palace 1-2 Brentford

Possible penalty retake: Encroaching by Marc Guéhi

What happened: Brentford were awarded a penalty in the 61st minute when Maxence Lacroix caught Nathan Collins inside the area. Bryan Mbeumo stepped up to take the penalty but hit the post, and Marc Guéhi cleared. However, there was a check for encroachment by the VAR, Darren England.

VAR decision: Penalty retaken, scored by Mbeumo.

VAR review: The whole purpose of the D area is to keep players 10 yards from the spot on a penalty. GuĂ©hi was inside the D when Mbeumo struck the ball, so he was encroaching and can’t impact the play. As he cleared the ball in front of Mbeumo, he was deemed to have had an effect on the outcome of the penalty.

The quirk in this decision, and why it’s so unfortunate for GuĂ©hi, is that Mbeumo was unable to play the ball because it came directly off the post. A penalty taker cannot play the ball again until it has been touched by another player.

Marc Guéhi was clearly encroaching when the penalty was taken. BBC

However, Vitaly Janelt was also behind Mbeumo and would also have had a chance to play the ball had it been left by Mbeumo. It’s probably unlikely that Mbeumo would have left it for his teammate, but we’ll never know because GuĂ©hi impacted the play before that could happen.

Verdict: An easy VAR intervention, but one that took too long.

There was a possibility of Vitaly Janelt scoring the rebound, so the penalty had to be retaken. BBC

Aston Villa 1-1 West Ham

Possible red card: Violent conduct by Digne on PaquetĂĄ

What happened: West Ham United were awarded a free kick deep into first-half stoppage time. Before the kick could be taken, Lucas PaquetĂĄ went to ground claiming to have been elbowed by Lucas Digne. It was checked by the VAR, Paul Tierney.

VAR decision: No red card.

It was decided that Lucas Digne’s actions did not reach the threshold for violent conduct. BBC

VAR review: The question for the VAR is whether this was petulant or violent, and whether PaquetĂĄ was really caused to go down because of it.

Replays suggest this was more a case of Digne trying to knock back at the West Ham midfielder, rather than a violent act to throw an elbow into his chest.

Verdict: Not to the threshold for violent conduct.

Some factual parts of this article include information provided by the Premier League and PGMOL.