This. US society is pretty prudish about nudity. In many European countries it’s not unusual for someone to be sunbathing fully nude in a public park. Here people start clutching pearls if a boob is shown on TV, but don’t care at all if the same show depicts lots of violence and gore.
I do think the idea of a woman with a penis is difficult, not necessarily intellectually, but practically. Our brains use shortcuts and cues to classify somebody as a man or woman. Genitalia is a pretty big cue, and the idea that a woman could have a penis is new or unfamiliar to most people.
None of this contradicts how hurtful it must be to trans women, per MH’s earlier posts. Our brains use different cues to stereotype each other all the time, and it often gets in the way of us seeing each other as full people. This is an especially serious case of that.
But I also think we miss the complexity of the issue if we don’t understand this as partially a problem of people seeing things that are not there (perhaps in their mind’s eye), or of making incorrect inferences. The immediate problem is that a penis makes somebody see a man, and men are not supposed to be in that place. For the person to not take the time to relearn how to recognize this as a woman, to fully see the person, is transphobic, but that takes time.
In this way, i think it’s different from simply seeing somebody with an unexpected body shape, which is a purely visceral experience.
It seems likely that in this particular story, somebody may have lied about the situation to drum up political anger, and terrify trans women into staying hidden. That is quite separate from what i am talking about earlier, and just despicable.
it’s not really. I don’t want women staring at me and judging my body any more than I do men. Thus is why I use changing rooms rather than do it in the open.
Actually, it’s a little different, but not enough for me to be cool with just letting it all out for women to stare either.
phobia? so women should be cool with straight cis men staring at them while they are naked and if they aren’t, that’s a problem with them?
You don’t have to be comfortable with anything, but that’s on you.
Staring is probably illegal, as that probably counts as sexual assault.
But are you comfortable with lesbians looking at your naked body? How is that different from men?
Are straight men comfortable with gay men looking at their naked body?
If we’re going to allow people to be naked together in locker rooms/saunas/bath houses, what does genitalia have to do with it? You either legalize it, or ban it. Genitalia is not part of the equation.
you can stare while not making it obvious that you’re staring. my point is, I don’t want people looking at me.
Where did I claim I’m comfortable with lesbians looking at my naked body either? I said I don’t want anyone looking at my naked body. I think I’d actually be more self conscious for straight women staring at my naked body than lesbians. Straight women are judgey.
also, it’s not “on me” here, in that, last I checked, cis males are still not allowed in the women’s locker room, and I don’t see that changing.
The discussion here is why are bath houses and locker rooms segregated by gender. Yes, we know what the current situation is, we don’t need you to tell us that.
If nudity is allowed amongst the same sex, it should be allowed amongst different sexes. That’s the discussion here.
If you think nudity should not be allowed anywhere, then that is a valid proposal as well.
whatever the case is, genitalia should not be part of the equation.
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enough of the population is uncomfortable with this, so it’s not going to change since the majority of people are straight.
how exactly does this harm you to separate men from women in locker rooms?
It harms how trans people are treated in these clothing optional areas. Keep up.
uh, I’m saying that it might be some hang up that people should just get over to allow trans women to share locker rooms with cis women, but not seeing why that should translate to cis men sharing locker rooms with cis women.
because there’s no way you can differentiate?
that’s not a valid reason. i’m taking someone’s word for it that they are a trans woman if they are in that locker room. this isn’t a reason to allow cis men in there too.
the entire point of this is that trans women are more comfortable around women. why in the world would a straight cis man need to be around naked women to be comfortable?
that’s a premise yet to be proven.
I have a feeling you’re more comfortable with people that have vaginas rather than penises, not women.
If you walk into a locker room and there’s someone with a penis, do you assume that’s a trans woman, or that it’s a man?
Do you normally even talk to people in locker rooms? What if they refuse to answer your question?
:sqintyeyes:
You’ve just thrown into question the entire “exotic dancing” industry.
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I have yet to ever walk into a locker room and see someone with a penis. If they are a trans-woman, I’d assume that they take some effort to look somewhat feminine so I’ll actually think this is a trans-woman and not a dude.
you still haven’t given me a good reason why straight cis gendered men should be allowed into locker rooms with women.
i meant comfortable in a way that he isn’t getting off on it. that’s exactly the kind of comfortable that’s to be avoided by allowing cis gendered straight men into women’s locker rooms.
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because it’s literally impossible to know someone’s gender identity and sexual orientation just by looking at them.
Your visceral discomfort is completely irrelevant due to this reason.
this is NOT a reason to allow straight cis gendered men into women’s locker rooms. they can stick to the male locker room and be just fine and not get a free show.
Gender passports, imo.
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How about you give me a reason why straight cis gendered men should NOT be allowed into women’s locker rooms.
When you think lesbians, judgey straight women, pre-op male-presenting transwomen with penises are all allowed.