The USSR had a system of godless communism which terrified people in the United States. Putin reinstited the tsarist practice of using the Orthodox church as a political ally. In the USSR the state (communist party) controlled the country’s assets. Putin allows oligarchs to control the assets as long as they display fealty to him. Other than that they are pretty similar.
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Sounds like an invasion of Ukraine is imminent.
This is not good. Putin is an evil man. As Alfred would say, some men just like to watch the world burn.
Here’s the treaty. It isn’t that long.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
Text of treaty
he Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments.
They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area.
They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :
Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.
Article 2
The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.
Article 3
In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.
Article 4
The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.
Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .
Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
- on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
- on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Article 7
This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security.
Article 8
Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.
Article 9
The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5.
Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.
Article 11
This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications. (3)
Article 12
After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.
Article 13
After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.
Article 14
This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other signatories.
- The definition of the territories to which Article 5 applies was revised by Article 2 of the Protocol to the North Atlantic Treaty on the accession of Greece and Turkey signed on 22 October 1951.
- On January 16, 1963, the North Atlantic Council noted that insofar as the former Algerian Departments of France were concerned, the relevant clauses of this Treaty had become inapplicable as from July 3, 1962.
- The Treaty came into force on 24 August 1949, after the deposition of the ratifications of all signatory states.
Isn’t it amazing that we can still declare war on another developed nation and the rest of the world collectively can’t do shit about it, including the US
Not so much “can’t” as it is “won’t” - and that also extends to preventing human atrocities, even after we’ve declared “never again.”
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Yeah, I guess the world has yet to find a solution to “a guy with a gun who is not afraid to use it.”
It is weird watching it happen in slow motion like this.
And how long after Putin invades Russia do you think it will be before Xi invades Taiwan?
Depends on the world’s reaction to Russia invading Ukraine. If it’s a whole lot of no, stop, don’t do that, someone should really do something about this, if you keep doing it we’ll … we’ll … [foot stomp] we’ll be very, very cross, goshdarnit it might be the highlight of the closing ceremonies of the Winter Paralympics.
Russia is reeling in a whole lot of stuff back to the motherland. Putin’s yachts, government personnel, anything that might be seized or individuals kicked out in a diplomatic show - they’re all fleeing the West. I would guess we’re ~72 hours away from something, possibly less. Really wouldn’t surprise me if the first attack happened right before kickoff of the Super Bowl.
I’d guess depends on 3 things. Scale, reaction, and Xi’s particular goals.
Scale I think comes first. Putin has had small invasions without anyone really caring. I think war with Taiwan would be like trying to take and hold Kyiv.
Then reaction-- how everyone responds. Through military or “sanctions” or rebels or trade.
Finally, what’s worth sacrificing for Putin may or may not be worth sacrificing for Xi.
I know after the tremendous success in the short war in Afghanistan, the US public has a tremendous appetite for another round of nation building and war. Watching a closely aligned and NATO ally get invaded by Putin will certainly be met with a table-pounding and resolute reaction to kick those Russkies back across the border.
sorry, I ran out of red ink.
We’ll see diplomats objecting, no, strike that, strongly objecting to the invasion and desiring that harsh sanctions are put in place. Putin will take a victory lap around the track.
Xi will be taking notes and amassing the troops for the imminent invasion. There will be more foot stomping and strong objections. The US better start learning how to manufacture semiconductor chips at home. soon, real soon.
The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were the exception, not the norm. They were more “revenge for something done to us” than “attempt to accomplish a laudable goal for human advancement” or “defense of a country we feel is even a nominal ally.” But I feel like that whole topic has been beaten to death in 11,003 other threads, I’m not going to make this the 11,004th.
Ukraine isn’t in NATO, so there’s no reason for anyone in NATO to have to do anything. In all honesty, this should be a fight that the European members of NATO take up. They’ll instead do the same thing they’ve done every other time violence broke out in their back yard: nothing. Hell, the breakup of Yugoslavia and the resulting 4 years of war between Bosnians, Croats and Serbs happened in the practical back yard of European NATO members and they all looked away, hands jammed in pockets, lamenting what was going on with platitudes because no one involved was in NATO.
The U.S. will not start manufacture of anything currently being done in China. We’ll bitch, whine and complain and do nothing. We’ll say it’s important, but we’ve demonstrated repeatedly we prefer low prices over American jobs and American principles. [Discussion of economic advantages in international trade omitted.]
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You mean the Democrats are trying to reach across the aisle?
I know that there’s red ink for your post; mine would have it too, but I ran out of red ink
2016-2020 consumed all the red ink
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lol
FWIW, I’ve seen news articles pointing out that Russia in the past few days has pulled consular staff/families home from the Ukraine.
Perhaps more concerningly, Putin’s mega yacht has moved from Germany to Kaliningrad, despite an overhaul not being complete, perhaps to reduce the risk it might be seized if sanctions were imposed due to an invasion of Ukraine.
In a major plot twist, the Germans retake Konigsberg when everyone was distracted by Ukraine.
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The bridge and all?
“The” bridge? Isn’t there 7 of them?