Biden's vaccine employment requirement

[Actuary321]

I assume a lot of these people are at least sympathetic with the Jan 6 revolutionaries.

I would not be surprised if people respond to this government mandate with armed rebellion or at least that call which will get support from some more radical elements.

[RoyWalley]

She’s opposed to mandates, but people aren’t getting the vaccine as quickly as she’d like, so maybe it’s time to have a mandate.

This mandate, different mandate, makes no difference. 2 sides of the same coin.

[RoyWalley]

@twig93

Mask mandates aren’t nearly as much of an infringement as vaccine mandates.

I’d say they’re much more of an infringement because they’re much less effective.

[twig93]

Figure out how to keep your nose & mouth covered. That’s on the individual.

If they can’t figure out how to do it with their facial hair then changing it is an option. Trying a different way of masking is an option.

Exposing me to their Covid germs is not a good option.

[Dara]

Ah, I see, so you would focus on mandates targeting the “unmasked” more than the “unvaccinated.”

[twig93]

Not really what I said. I compared being both unmasked and unvaccinated to be similarly risky to drunk driving.

Unmasked and vaccinated is different… not sure what’s appropriate there. Most mask mandates no longer apply to those folks anyway.

[Actuary321]

@Lucy

@Actuary321

I think part of Roy’s point is that what we are doing isn’t working so maybe we need to try something other things that have seemed to work better. Forcing people actually has a more negative effect. Look at twig and I, people who are vaccinated and who would encourage those who aren’t vaccinated (and haven’t had COVID in some cases) to get vaccinated are against government mandates.

I’m also opposed to this government mandate, as you can see from a couple of my comments above. Nonetheless, what has actually worked really well in the past is … government mandates. Government mandates have eradicated smallpox and mostly eliminated measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough.

I agree that the pushback isn’t good. And it’s partly because there’s so much pushback that I don’t think a government mandate – a tried and true tool that has worked really well in the past – is likely to be a good idea.

I also think this particular mandate (make employers do it) is government over-reach. I am much more comfortable with mandates to go to school, mandates to enter a library, or mandates that cover “large gatherings” (which might include some workplaces, but would mostly apply to things like stadiums and amusement parks) than with mandates that are aimed at employers.

But you are right that what we are doing isn’t working. So maybe it’s time to try mandates? I wish we’d tried incentives between “recommending” and “mandating”, including incentives to employers who give generous time off for hourly employees who might have side effects after vaccination. But a lot of states are running out of space in their intensive care units, so maybe it IS time to bring out the big guns?

Interesting turn of phrase. I wouldn’t be surprised if people respond in kind, and not metaphorically.

[Dara]

@twig93

Not really what I said. I compared being both unmasked and unvaccinated to be similarly risky to drunk driving.

Unmasked and vaccinated is different… not sure what’s appropriate there. Most mask mandates no longer apply to those folks anyway.

I’m still not clear what you would replace the vaccine mandate with then. Mask mandates for only the unvaccinated? That’s almost impossible to enforce don’t you think?

[RoyWalley]

Not just masked. They have to be “properly” masked.

[Lucy]

@twig93

@Lucy

But we’ve eliminated measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, tetanus

No we haven’t. My friend’s 2 month old son was hospitalized for like a month with whooping cough just a few years ago. It was awful.

Yes, we can probably reduce the risk to those levels, but it’s wrong to imply that we’ve eliminated those risks.

I’m sorry about your friend’s son.

Eradicated and eliminated both have technical meanings in epidemiology.

The Principles of Disease Elimination and Eradication (cdc.gov)

• Control: The reduction of disease incidence, prevalence, morbidity or mortality to a locally acceptable level as a result of deliberate efforts; continued intervention measures are required to maintain the reduction. Example: diarrhoeal diseases.
• Elimination of disease: Reduction to zero of the incidence of a specified disease in a defined geographical area as a result of deliberate efforts; continued intervention measures are required. Example: neonatal tetanus.
• Elimination of infections: Reduction to zero of the incidence of infection caused by a specific agent in a defined geographical area as a result of deliberate efforts; continued measures to prevent re-establishment of transmission are required. Example: measles, poliomyelitis.
• Eradication: Permanent reduction to zero of the worldwide incidence of infection caused by a specific agent as a result of deliberate efforts; intervention measures are no longer needed. Example: smallpox.
• Extinction: The specific infectious agent no longer exists in nature or in the laboratory. Example: none.

While there are occasional local outbreaks of the diseases that have been eliminated, we mostly follow the rules and don’t need to worry about them.

[magillaG]

Ah, that makes sense.

Although i’m not sure the way to address that is by addressing the genuine causes of suffering for many working class people. Letting covid drag out would not do that.

Tabloid style conservative news sources seem to be hysterical no matter what the D’s do.

[Lucy]

@RoyWalley

She’s opposed to mandates, but people aren’t getting the vaccine as quickly as she’d like, so maybe it’s time to have a mandate.

This mandate, different mandate, makes no difference. 2 sides of the same coin.

I started out opposed to this mandate. But reading Actuary123 and you, I am leaning more and more in favor of some kind of mandate.

I don’t like this mandate. And I do think it matters. I think a state mandating vaccination for kids to attend public school is a more appropriate response than the federal government mandating that employers enforce vaccination. I think that excluding the unvaccinated from various public places is a lot more acceptable than forcibly entering people’s homes, handcuffing, them, and jabbing them with needles. Details always matter.

[twig93]

Whooping cough and measles don’t appear to meet the “reduce to zero” criteria. I’m less familiar with the others.

[RoyWalley]

@magillaG

Tabloid style conservative news sources seem to be hysterical no matter what the D’s do.

Tabloid style liberal news sources hurt your goal.

[RoyWalley]

@Lucy

I think that excluding the unvaccinated from various public places is a lot more acceptable

Go ahead and pursue that, and years from now ask “Whatever happened to that right to privacy thing?”

[Snikelfritz]

@twig93

They certainly do get it and spread it, but I thought there was evidence that they get it at a somewhat lower rate than adults.

Ok could be they get infected less than adults. I just think when they’re the main group congregating in schools it’s a big problem for reaching herd immunity until they can be vaccinated.

[dr_t_non-fan]

More likely that they get infected just as easily as adults do, but are also more likely to be asymptomatic. So, still contagious, but no one can tell.

[twig93]

For sure

[twig93]

That was my perception for a while too, but I thought @Marcie posted a study showing that they actually get it less. It’s possible I’m remembering wrong.

[Actuary321]

I think the geography thing might work into that definition as well. Seems that whenever there is a measles case in my state, it gets publicized pretty well. I’m guessing that their geographic regions can be pretty small.