US Supreme Court curbs consideration of race in university admissions

The Sandbox Political Topics
83

Same thing here in the midwest.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article277289543.html

84

I wonder how much the predecessors to these Republican AGs in the 1950’s and 1960’s challenged the discriminatory employment practices of employers towards underrepresented groups? They certainly are concerned now that these underrepresented groups have some advantages.

3 Likes
85

You operate under the premise that affirmative action remains a net “good” for US society. I do believe that some of the positive aspects are offset by the lower expectations from society regarding those that are “disadvantaged”. This lower expectation plus the internalization for many that have been taught that they are marginalized and need this assistance creates a mindset that keeps people from their full potential.

There is the ability to sue a company for discrimination. Companies will continue to fear this. I’m sure that did not exist in the 1950’s.

I enjoy your contributions to this forum

86

I’ve seen editorials that were saying if you put someone in an advanced school like Harvard because of affirmative action and they were not smart enough to get in on grades alone then you are doing them a disservice. This is because AA gets you into school but won’t help you pass your classes. The author pointed to lower graduation rates for minorities at IV league schools than at HBCUs.

I did not fact check any of this and am merely passing along the views of others.

87

idk

“Some people say…”? Yeah, I’ve heard that before.

Also, smart = GPA?

Also, minorities = AA?

Also, grad rate is because “not smart enough”?

I could see, for instance, someone bailing on Harvard for a HBCU because many non-minorities will assume (exactly as the previous post seems to) that being a minority means that you didn’t get there by merit. Why put up with that crap for 4 years and beyond?

2 Likes
88

I can see arguments both ways in the US but am aware that the actuarial profession is very underrepresented from the Black community in the US. In Canada, the biggest underrepresentation is from the Indigenous community.

I have stronger feelings in favour of affirmative action in Canada as I understand that history better and we have treated our native communities horribly in the past. I think Canada will benefit as a society if we can raise them out of the situation we created for them. There is a huge cost in Canada for the status quo.

My personal focus with the Indigenous communities has been in encouraging more mathematics-related instruction in public schools as I think that discipline leads to many opportunities. If some of these students become actuaries that is great, but just seeing more Indigenous students getting the confidence and tools to get into university is a giant step forward.

89

Smart because people in Harvard are generally smart and AA = affirmative action which is usually aimed at minorities.
They were looking at grad rates in math and sciences where the graduation rate at Harvard is lower than the minority rates at Harvard BA majors as well as lower than HBCU math and science majors.

1 Like
90

In the CAS survey they just sent out there was a mention of a plan to host actuary days in underrepresented high schools as way to fix the problem at the source, which is to get more minorities interested in the profession and provide them financial assistance with the exams if necessary

91

As a reminder, the current (well, I guess previous) admissions policy at Harvard was the following:

  1. Look at all applications, give them all ratings that combine objective and subjective things.

  2. Based on those ratings, sort applications into 3 buckets: A, B, and C, with somewhere on the order of top 1,000 in A, next 6-8,000 in B, rest in C.

  3. Admit everyone in bucket A.

  4. Of those in bucket B, admit those who are legacies, athletes, faculty brats, people chosen by the dean, or diversity admits. Reject rest.

  5. Reject those in bucket C unless they are ridiculously good athletes (and even there there is a floor on academic ability per Ivy League rules) or come from stupidly wealthy families.

Diversity admits do not come from bucket C. In particular, there are no unqualified diversity admits.

Asian applicants were discriminated against in 3 ways. The biggest is that there is compelling evidence that the subjective portion of their ratings was biased downwards, dropping lots of students from Bucket A to B. This has not been proven in court, but if it is happening is wrong.

The second is that Asians are underrepresented in the legacy / athlete admits from Bucket B. The third is that they rarely quality for diversity admits from Bucket B. My ordering is b/c there are far more legacy / athlete admits than diversity admits. The lawsuit only challenged the 3rd of those forms of discrimination.

1 Like
92

We don’t have the US university AA type programs in Canada. You have to have the grades to get in. The focus is more on getting students from underrepresented communities interested in and prepared to go to university and provide financial assistance to the students that need it.

93

This approach makes sense and is what the CIA has started doing. Even this is under attack from a certain group of (old white) CAS actuaries on the basis that it discriminates against whites.

94

If one oversimplifies affirmative action, and views it simply as a “lowering of standards” for certain groups in the name of perceived equity, it’s probably worth asking the question:

Is it really a “lowering of standards”, or is it an attempt to recognize that the standards may have an inherent bias built in?

For example, assume for the moment that “very high SAT score” is the primary metric to qualify an applicant for admission to Harvard. It’s worth asking: do certain groups of students score high relative to their actual likelihood of success at Harvard because they are more likely to have the resources to take supplemental SAT prep classes, or they are more likely to have Tiger Moms who pressure the applicants to maximize their test scores; while other groups may have lower scores on average relative to their actual likelihood of success because they are less likely to have such resources, or perhaps due to some cultural bias in the framing of SAT questions?

I’ll admit, however, that some forms of AA practiced by some schools probably is closer to “lowering standards” than “accounting for bias in the standards”…but doing the latter is a hard thing to pull off successfully.

1 Like
95

There is no question that black actuaries are underrepresented in the US. Now, the % should not necessarily equal the % of the black population, but it “should be” higher. I agree with all outreach at the HS and college level to let whomever know about the profession, and if an actuarial society wishes to target minorities then so be it.

I actually disagree with financial assistance for actuarial exams, unless it is in the form of reimbursement after passing, or a one-time free exam. I don’t feel very strongly about it, but the cost is really not prohibitive and gives the student some more motivation to pass.

I like your focus on mathematics in public schools.

1 Like
96

I have chaired the Youth Education Committee of the Actuarial Foundation of Canada for some years and work closely with many charities that promote math education to elementary and high school students through a wide variety of teacher and student programs. It can be heartwarming to see these students get excited about learning.

I recently attended the “graduation exercises” for one program where Grade 11 students from Indigenous communities spend a week in university going to science and math classes designed exclusively for them. The students give presentations at the end of the week telling what they learned and what the experience meant to them. Pretty moving to see the impact it had on many of these students from the smaller communities.

I am sharing this to encourage folks to volunteer with your own Actuarial Foundation. We rely solely on volunteers for the Canadian AF and will shortly be soliciting for many actuaries to volunteer with several of our charities. We had 80 Canadian actuaries sign up a few years ago to teach financial literacy courses to students from grade 4 to 12. I know the much larger US AF also has interesting opportunities. Doesn’t have to be a big time commitment.

End of advertisement.

97

It certainly was for me when I was taking exams in college.

2 Likes
98

I did some volunteer work 15 years ago in a local elementary school that received a grant from the actuarial foundation. Of the 25ish 4th graders, THREE went to college to become actuaries (and were employed as actuaries after graduating). All of them credit the involvement of the actuaries in the classroom with that decision.

If that’s not an excellent return on an investment, I don’t know what is.

The program only got funded for one year, sadly.

4 Likes
99

I do not consider the $75-$100 fees for the 1st 2 exams under the 2000+ schedule to be prohibitive. I also consider the $250-$300 for the 1st 4 exams for a student under the current schedule to be reasonable. If they are prohibitive for someone, then they should serve as additional motivation to not take them again. The cost of college is what is prohibitive.

100

A person who sees $250 as prohibitive in college is likely not getting support from parents, has to work during school, and is probably as a result not as likely to pass as the person who doesn’t see it as prohibitive.

College can be funded through loans (advisable or not). Exams aren’t tuition, and a credit card might be the only option.

I fund an exam scholarship that gives priority to needs-based candidates. They do exist, trust me.

4 Likes
101

Everyone that Harvard admits is smart enough to graduate.

The author pointed to lower graduation rates for minorities at IV league schools than at HBCUs.

I did not fact check any of this and am merely passing along the views of others

In a later post, you reference math and science as if you have a source that you didn’t link.

Overall, black graduation rates at Harvard are about 96.5%, white are 97%.

HBCUs with the best graduation rates are far below that. Spellman and Howard are 75% and 62%.

https://www.theedadvocate.org/what-hbcus-have-the-highest-4-year-graduation-rates/

2 Likes
102

How much of that difference is caused by below-academic-average athletes?

Asking for a friend.