Random Political Thoughts

[AcademicActuary]

@twig93

My mother certainly let me eat her pies when I was a kid, and unlike Mini Me, I loved them.

Did you eat chiffon pie every day the way a child would drink milk?

[The_President]

Pasteurized milk seems pretty gross to begin with, i’m going to pass on the raw milk.

[Cooke]

Most of us drank unpasteurized milk from our mothers when we were babies. Just saying.

[SteveGrondin]

Until 1907

@twig93

People who drank raw milk for 6 millennia all died according to my google search

IFYP

[soyleche]

@Cooke

@twig93

Most raw milk is fine. People have been drinking raw milk for 6 millennia according to my Google search.

It’s riskier than Pasteurized milk, and having grown up on Pasteurized milk that’s what I prefer (although homogenization is far more important than Pasteurization in terms of how icky or pleasant it is to drink). But the risk is small and I believe the choice should be mine.

I grew up drinking raw milk as we just set aside a few quarts for family consumption from our morning milking each day. However my father monitored every cow’s health carefully and took appropriate actions. We switched to store bought pasteurized milk in adulthood after my father retired. I would not take a chance with raw milk from anyone else even though it tastes better.

This.

There’s quite a large difference between drinking raw milk from your own cow and drinking raw milk from a couple hundred cows that’s been mixed together. If one is contaminated, they whole thing is now.

Same with eggs. A single egg is pretty safe. If you buy a carton of “scrambled eggs”, that has to be pasteurized for good reason.

If you want steak tartar, grind it yourself. Never try it using the pre-ground stuff.

As far as cookie dough - I’ve heard the raw flour might be a bigger problem than the raw eggs in that.

[The_President]

Yeah, doing that as an adult with something from a cow is kind of weird. I’m fine with making other things out of it.

[Cooke]

My kids and grandkids have largely abandoned cow milk. Where I draw the line now is on cheese.

I have not found anything resembling a good non-dairy substitute for cheese. It is also personal for me as the milk from our dairy farm was sent to the local cheese factory for processing. Factory is still in operation after 100+ years but no longer a co-op. It is owned by a food conglomerate now. The brand lives on as it has always had a good reputation for quality.

[twig93]

No, but I provided other examples of people who eat raw eggs pretty regularly.

[twig93]

@soyleche

As far as cookie dough - I’ve heard the raw flour might be a bigger problem than the raw eggs in that.

Both have a small risk.

It’s also quite easy to buy raw flour. Like eggs & meat.

It’s only milk that people freak out about.

Heck, even cheese made from raw milk doesn’t get people up in arms… just the actual milk itself.

[The_President]

Hmmm, google is telling me 1 in 20k eggs is positive for salmonella, while 5-20% of raw milk is positive with the bacteria.

[twig93]

Where are you seeing 5-20%?

And what does it mean to be “positive with the bacteria”? I mean there are trace amounts of bacteria in just about everything.

Is there enough bacteria to be dangerous?

[The_President]

google, various links.

I am guessing many of these are “not enough to be dangerous” since it seems that if that many people got sick that it would not be a thing. I am also not sure if that is testable.

[The_Polymath]

Sure. But human breast milk does not contain harmful bacteria for the human body.

Quite the opposite: it strengthens the immune system of a newborn (which is important until vaccination).

Drinking raw cows milk on the other hand…is pretty much a roll of the dice even with careful monitoring of the cows that produce it (which in many cases doesnt happen) because of the bacteria it contains.

[The_President]

Here's Why Raw Milk Is Risky for Kids

• Campylobacter: 6%
• Shiga toxin-producing E. coli: 4.3%
• Listeria monocytogenes: 4.3%
• Salmonella: 3.6%

[The_President]

Raw ground beef looks like it is coming in at < 0.5% for e-coli. TIL.

Any other raw foods we need to compare to raw milk?

[twig93]

Google also tells me that there were 3 deaths caused by consuming raw milk in the 21 year span from 1998 - 2018.

And roughly 4.4% of Americans consume raw milk at least once a year with about a quarter of those consuming it at least once a week.

It seems like driving a car is many orders of magnitude more dangerous than consuming raw milk, and yet we allow cars…

[The_President]

What are you trying to prove? Is the 3.6% wrong? Is it just not enough to make 3.6% of the people sick? What about the other bacteria?

I’m not arguing raw milk should be banned, I don’t really care one way or another, but the raw egg comparison seems like a really bad one to be making.

[twig93]

My point is that we don’t ban every inherently risky activity. We let people decide for themselves. We let patents decide on behalf of their children. For copious quantities of decisions.

I see no compelling reason why the raw milk decision should be in the hands of the government rather than the parents.

[twig93]

I lean Libertarian so I start with a default position that something should be allowed unless there’s a compelling reason to forbid it.

I don’t see the compelling reason for raw milk.

[twig93]

@The_President

Any other raw foods we need to compare to raw milk?

Dunno, but apparently we should be comparing it to Pasteurized milk.

[Presence of E. coli bacteria in raw and pasteurized cow's milk] - PubMed.

Dispeptic E. coli are detected in 11.76 per cent of the samples of raw milk studied, and in 5.18 per cent in those of the pasteurized milk.

So sure, Pasteurized milk is obviously safer, but that difference isn’t so striking that it screams “ban” to me.