Yeah. The US views secession more seriously than Canada. If a Canadian province wants to leave they could do so without blood shed. They just need to do so in accordance with our Clarity Act.
I could accept being a part of a “Western America” that stretched along the Pacific Ocean from Alaska to California but that is not going to happen.
I more meant the silly votes to secede more recently than the bloody civil war, although both certainly apply
Is there any process under which an American state could leave the USA? For example, a majority of the affected state’s voters approving it combined with a majority of other states’ representatives agreeing? Or is it strictly forbidden to secede?
I assume a UDI on its own would trigger the army going into the state.
I think technically it’s an open legal question but I think it’s almost certainly illegal and there is no legal process to secede.
I am just curious does the same act give guidance on kicking out a province?
Good question. We have not had to confront that situation yet. The Clarity Act was created to address Quebec’s desire for independence so only discusses a province’s wish to secede.
It has occurred to me more than once that maybe the USA is better splitting into 2 countries and I did look into it. The only thing closely similar to it was probably the state of Virginia splitting into 2 because of the civil war.
ISTR there were some SCOTUS rulings in conjunction with the Civil War to that effect.
Presumably Congress could pass legislation to provide a suitable process, analogous to the process established to admit new states, but I think SCOTUS might have something to say about whether territory incorporated into the United States can be disincorporated, since it was SCOTUS rulings that caused the entire structure of incorporated vs unincorporated to be introduced.
But wouldn’t a constitutional amendment to permit secession trump any future SCOTUS ruling as then the action would be constitutional?
Not that any politician has the courage nowadays to suggest any constitutional amendments.
I think the Civil War pretty definitively answered the question. Statehood is a one-way street.
That said, see my post in the other thread about national debt, military & other federal assets, pensions…
It would have answered it the other way if the south had won…
Two?
Also VA is not the only state to split.
Presumably referring to Va / WVa split. And what other state has split, after being a state? I know there have been some border readjustments, but those just moved land from one state to another existing state.
I also know some of the original colonies had borders extending well to the west of their current borders. Was that area part of the original state, or still a territory when the state was admitted?
Maine split off from Massachusetts
In addition to the aforementioned West Virginia and Maine, Kentucky used to be part of Virginia and did not become a separate entity until after the Declaration of Independence. (July 4 vs December 31, 1776) So I think that qualifies.
Obviously other territories such as Carolina and Dakota separated prior to statehood.
And borders have wiggled, but that’s admittedly a different category.
Maine counts, and obviously West Virginia counts. Since Virginia did not become a state until June 1788, I won’t agree to count Kentucky.
I wasn’t thinking about the NC/SC split, which was obviously before statehood. I was thinking about NC/Tennessee, where Tennessee was part of the NC colony, Looks like Tennessee should count. 3 counties from NC tried to become the separate state of Franklin and sought admission to the US (this after NC had tried to cede them to the Confederation Congress [federal government]). That didn’t succeed, and eventually they rejoined NC. They were in NC when NC became a state (Nov 21, 1789). On Dec 22, 1789, NC ceded 6 counties (including the 3 that had been Franklin) to the Continental Congress. They became part of the Southwest Territory. Tennessee was admitted as a state in 1796.
I lived in NC from 7th grade through high school, and while on breaks and summers during college. I had to study NC history, in 7th grade or conceivably 8th. Other that knowing NC originally extended further west, almost everything in this post is from Googling tonight. I had heard of, but had forgotten, the state of Franklin.
I disagree with these dates (not just Virginia… all of the 13 colonies). That’s when they ratified the U.S. Constitution. But they were clearly states before then.
The Declaration of Independence claims “these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States” (emphasis mine).
So… states in 1776.
The Articles of Confederation were ratified by the thirteen states in 1777. States… that already existed. Including Virginia. Any number of U.S. history books declare that the United States became a country on July 4, 1776 with 13 original states… so the notion that there were actually 0 states until Delaware ratified the Constitution in 1787 is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
What I was trying to understand was what a breakup would look like if a situation gets so polarised that the two are probably better off separating.
I particularly focused on the Civil war break up of Virginia and West Virginia because these two ended up on two opposing sides reflecting a very polarised situation there. The Maine situation also shows there was serious polarisation.
This is just following through on the discussion of how do states secede to just wondering if any split is possible at all and how. I understand that there is no legal framework for states to secede but I think (correct me if I am wrong) that’s similar to there being no framework for parts of states to secede but we have seen them. Below states we don’t have any sovereign units to my understanding so there is no unit that can legally secede but splits have happened.
Iirc The Maine situation wasn’t polarization between Maine and Mass., but rather a free/slave state balance issue between the us as a whole (although that could be the polarization you are thinking about).
And I agree with the posters who say the US Civil War pretty definitely decided the question about secession under the Constitution.