Israel - Hamas War October 2023

Seems like a clever idea. I certainly wouldn’t want to be venturing into those tunnels.

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Why? Just pump from the Mediterranean.

Yes, that’s what I believe is being discussed. Not sure why it might affect the water supply.

The water will seep from the tunnels into the aquifer which may increase the salinity of any ground pumped water in Gaza.


Aren’t the hostages being kept in the tunnels?

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If hamas wants to keep them as a bargaining chip they’d have to move the hostages out of the tunnels. That would presumably make them easier to get back

Although I think Israel is willing to see hostages due if it weakens hamas sufficiently.

IDF is specifically target residential buildings.

This is what happens when you let extremists run the show on the military side.

Its really no different with what you see in the US with Trump and his cronies. There were always extremists on the IDF side of things, but having reasonable people im charge kept them in check. Now they are emboldened, and are actively causing more and more carnage.

NYT had an article about whether Zionism = Antisemitism that is similar to the discussion that we had here. None of us were credited though :frowning_face:

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I received a little bit of heat in that discussion, and this immediately caught my eye:

when Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina governor, said, “If you don’t think Israel has a right to exist, that is antisemitic.”

My feelings are mixed. Israel today has a right to exist - self-defense is perhaps the most fundamental human right. Did Israel have a right to be created? Well - by right of might, clearly yes, as it was done by the people with the most guns. Morally, my feelings are very mixed, but following (allegedly) drunken nights of carving up territory on a map, we have what we have.

So in the context of “Do I want Israel destroyed” -no. I’m not anti-Zionist in regards to Israel’s current rights to defend its current borders. I have no strong feelings on the creation of Israel.

I am anti-Zionist when it comes to expanding Israel into Israel-occupied Palestine, whether that means genocide or political irrelevance for Palestinians.

There’s a lot of complication in that these talking heads will rarely approach nuance or context, and it’s generally all or nothing. You must be 100% in support or you’re for terrorists.


I remember reading an article in The Economist many moons ago that talked about how there is reluctance outside Israel to criticize anything Israel does for fear of being labeled antisemitic. But that ignores that some of these topics (expanding settlements, treatment of Palestinians) were robustly debated within Israel without viewpoints being labeled antisemitic.

Probably a similar idea to how you couldn’t criticize Nelson Mandela’s handling of AIDS for fear of being labeled a racist.

For me I can condemn Hamas without being on board with Israeli expansion of settlements in the West Bank, as an example. Maybe some people think that’s antisemitic but I don’t. :woman_shrugging:


As far as Israel having a right to be created:

Trans-Jordan hadn’t been country for centuries prior to 1948. It had been part of various empires and Caliphates since the fall of the Crusader state of Jerusalem. Including the next best thing to 400 years of Ottoman rule. A lot of mid-East countries were created right around then.

Jews had been buying land, legally moving into the area, and creating communities since at least the 1880’s and the pace picked up a lot between WW1 and WW2. I would say they had as much right as any regional Arab tribe to create their own country. The fact of the matter is the Palestinians were offered their own territorial control to create a country and a near majority (at least) simply refused to accept co-existence with Israel in 1948.

I would like to see the settler movement stopped and perhaps even partially reversed. OTOH, Israel cannot be expected to give up security control of the Golan heights. Any enemy that controls that area can shell most of the population of Israel. All of the Arab nations bordering it and the Palestinians have proven they can’t be trusted with that situation any time soon.


Even Canada has just abandoned its long-standing history of always supporting Israel (in lock-step with the US). They are voting today in favour of the UN resolution calling for an Israeli ceasefire. That is a huge change in policy and is very controversial in Canada.

US and Israel were pretty isolated on opposing this resolution as only 8 other countries opposed it at the General Assembly.


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The US needs to stop supporting Israel militarily. They can still have military assets in play in the area in order to stop a wider conflict in the ME, but they need to stop sending them bombs and hardware.

Biden needs to realise two things:

  1. He is putting his own re-election at risk (Trump is now beating him in national polls)

  2. Both Bibi and Putin will benefit immensely from a Biden loss (they would get carte blanche to do whatever they want in Gaza and Ukraine)

There is now a REAL risk of a 2nd Trump administration, and this is being driven by the situations in Ukraine and Gaza.

There is no positive net benefit for the US to keep arming Israel. If Israel wants to keep bombing Gaza, they should be isolated, and they can then deal with the consequences of their own actions themselves.


Now this is absurd. The levels of censorship now are truly off the charts.

It doesn’t seem intuitive to me that Biden being a weaker supporter of Israel militarily would lead him to fare better in an election against DJT. I think the only potential way would be through turnout, but I think he’d lose that tradeoff too. If he went all in on the Progressive-ideal he’d get extra D turnout but I’d speculate it’d be dwarfed by the “save the holy land” extra turnout.

Off the turnout angle, he’s basically doing a good job. Supporting Israel which is popular, but attempting to push back against their going too far. That’s a pretty centrist line as far as I can tell. You think he should be all in on the Progressive-ideal because of your views but I certainly don’t think he’d fare better in an election with that strategy.


You have to think a bit more strategically about this.

  1. Bibi is pushing for a longer war for his own political survival. His end goal is predicated on stretching this out as much as possible and then having some commission look at the evidence (likely for years). He will then manipulate the findings for his own political benefit.

  2. This war could in fact extend well into 2024 if the US keeps supplying military hardware and ordenance, as its that supply that is keeping it going. Israel does not have the production capabilities for this kind of extended war. Their real economy would implode if they shifted to a war economy.

  3. The longer this goes on, the more you destabilise the ME, and the more you strengthen Bibi and the right-wing extremists in Govt. End result is a higher probability of Biden being hurt by this electorally speaking via turnout.

So its in Biden’s best interests to stop supplying military hardware and ordenance, as that will force the IDF to stop its operations (as they will run out of war materiel).

What it comes down to me:

10,000 Children have died in Gaza
Making sure Trump loses in 2024


Strengthening Bibi & Right-wing extremists in Israel

This really should be a no-brainer. The US (and world) cannot afford another Trump Presidency (I have no idea why people seem to not be taking this seriously. It is becoming a real tangible US & global risk).

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This is all irrelevant to Biden’s election chances, you just feel it’s important in your views about Israel.

You’ve just shoehorned in “higher probability of Biden being hurt” with no reasoning behind it.

We’re all aiming for the same thing, but you haven’t provided any reasoning for your contention.

I think the US should invest much more in space exploration, maybe I’ll just start claiming that Biden is going to lose the election because he won’t push more space exploration.


This is what needs to be done. And soon. Its time for Biden to help remove Bibi from power.