Even more recent than the 1800s, there are lots of pictures of Sophia Loren flaunting her hairy armpits.
Yeah in Europe I don’t think they shave as much. I don’t know that I’d be a fan of my wife having as much hair on her legs as me, for example, but she’s far more concerned about shaving them/armpits regularly than I’d ever notice.
The ratio of sinks to stalls is a bit high, and there’s an annoying subset of men who piss all over toilet seats, but even with those caveats, I agree it’s a good system, as long as you can clearly tell which units are occupied, and people understand they’re queuing on all four units at once. I’ve had people get mad at me when they showed up after I did, but happened to be standing closer to the first unit to open up.
In Africa women don’t shave or pluck anything. It’s not uncommon to see prominent chin hairs on women because there is no expectation that they would pluck them to be more “feminine”.
At least in the area I visited anyway. 
The European shows on netlfix show women (and teenage girls) with armpit hair all the time.
I started a somewhat related thread a long time ago. It’s a good read.
Among other things, I learned that many (most?) of us here have hardly any gender feelings. While a few others (Mountain Hawk, Serena) have very powerful gender feelings.
It’s a very limited and biased selection (I’m not sure “manly-men” ever become actuaries, for example) but it was interesting.
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my grandmother didn’t shave her pits cause she thought that it meant that it would grow back faster. not sure that shows confidence though.
my mother had to shave her pits behind granny fan’s back…
I’d say this is messy because it interacts with sexuality. When one finds hairy legs sexy or gross leads to their sexual-mates to shaving more.
It also, I think interacts with vanity. The women I know are more vain, and give a lot more shits about their appearance. They want to feel beautiful. This makes them spend more time grooming. Which, I think? results in the whole cultural norm shifting of what defines “groomed”.
But it leaves open the question whether the difference in average-vanity is cultural or biological (and/or for that matter sexual).
(Of course I have heard that gay men are traditionally like women in terms of vanity, wanting to groom, feel beautiful, and noticing each others appearances. No idea how that might tie in.)
I wonder if this is just something that we don’t notice unless something is miswired.
I keep thinking about this from a gay man vs (straight) transwoman perspective. Gay men often like to be flashy, wear jewelry, wear heels should they feel sassy, act effeminate if they so desire. All these things are about expression, and maybe sheds light on your inner personality.
This gender dysmorphia seems to be about something else though. Just wearing makeup and heels certainly aren’t enough. There’s something that makes you go: this is not what I should look like.
The question is: who should you look like? And where did that reference come from? Maybe it’s not about looks, but rather a feeling too. What does it mean to feel like a man or a woman?
My guess is that being ‘miswired’ changes the gender-feeling from something pleasant to something unbearable.
Kind of like the difference between enjoying cigarettes vs not being able to enjoy cigarettes.
But I definitely think that there are degrees, both fore people who are wired-correctly and miswired. In that thread, Serena was “wired correctly” and clearly felt it. Mountainhawk was “miswired” and felt it very, very painfully. Lucy was arguably “miswired” but didn’t really feel it as powerful force so much as annoyance.
I should add I also don’t feel entirely wired appropriately. I have some masculine traits… but I have a lot of female identity things too. And I probably would look good to myself as a woman. But I definitely don’t care enough to go through the rigamarole of doing so.
Which, I guess, from now_samatha’s post, could be repression. But it at least feels less like repression and more like not giving shits, and wanting to do other things instead, like play videogames and yell at you guys.
I fixed your quote tags – they need to be alone on the line.
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Search no farther!! /s
I know several male power-lifter actuaries who are buff as heck. Also a woman who plays rugby. I think it’s just your sample size.
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Do you think it’s common? I was exaggerating for sure, as there are exceptions to every rule, but I’m curious what you think the numbers are like.
I’m trying to think of the genitalia separately from everything else.
The genitalia difference at birth exists. Everything else is cultural not biological. I’m not disputing all the cultural things do exist. It’s just easier for me to frame the discussion and outcomes with that framework.
By default I’d assume that a construction worker or lumberjack is more “manly” than an actuary, but also an actuary would be more fit than a long-haul trucker.
I’d bet our men are near average in “manliness” with a slight bias toward “non-manliness” because desk job. Actuaries tend to have a lot of self-motivation, money, and free time to work on themselves.
is this the definition of manly man?
I have many gay body builders that also do drag/wear makeup/paint their nails
TBH I don’t know what a “manly man” is and that veers back into the original gender discussion. However I am conditioned to not find a stinky hairy lump to be manly.
I think most of my gender feelings were in middle and high school when I just desperately wanted to fit in and feel like I belonged. I think being forced into a building and then conform for 7 hours every day is a mental health nightmare for most young people.
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In america, we associate manliness with self reliance and the frontiersman. he becomes a cowboy as time passes.
providing is also associate with manliness. this seems to create crises of identity when men cannot support their families through these traditional “self reliance” working class jobs.
i’d say there are other stereotypes of manliness too, though. the ancient romans stressed an even disposition, which is part of why the penises on classical sculptures, and their renaissance counterparts, are so small.
and in the middle ages, manliness seems to have meant the ability to conduct warfare.