I think Will and Jada are a big mismatch. It’s like she’s not even attracted to Will. He’s non-thug like Tupac and August are. I mean, Will must really love Jada, to take her look of disapproval and go hit another man for it to win her approval back?
Maybe I’m blowing smoke, but I think these two are divorcing soon and maybe this was Wills attempt at non-divorce possibility. I can see all the stuff that he’s been doing (YouTube, Movies, Books, OScars, Jada, Kids) is pushing him to his limits.
I still don’t think hitting Chris was right, at all, and could have been handled a lot different. Chris’ joke shouldn’t have been said either obviously. When he first said it I thought it was more of a complement (I found Demi very attractive in G.I. Jane). But I get the alopecia debate now that I know.
I learned:
1.) 6’ of social distance is becoming more and more important
2.) if someone is approaching you start to back up (I keep thinking if Chris avoided Will for 5 more seconds that the slap wouldn’t have happened)
3.) I’ve been called a misogynist and it hurt - enough to where I started to think before I speak more and more
4.) Think about what-ifs - would I appreciate it if you say/do something to me and how would it make me feel
So you gotta look at Will’s situation. He’s making $50M per movie, got another man sleeping with his wife, and has Chris Rock cracking jokes on TV about his wife’s medical condition. Now I’m not saying he should have slapped him… but I understand.
Where we will likely part ways is on the size and breadth of the bell curve distribution of the myriad ways and degrees to which that hatred/fear manifests.
On the left side of the bell:
The guy at the board meeting who makes a joke about me getting him a cup of coffee as opposed to starting my presentation probably doesn’t outwardly “hate” or “fear” me in the literal sense of the words. But those emotions, to however small a degree are what belies both his urge to make the joke - and his feeling that he is perfectly fine in doing so.
The other men in the room who laugh at the joke don’t deeply hate or fear me either. But they are programmed to laugh at the boss’s jokes and it may not even occur to them to consider how it landed with me. It’s a joke that wouldn’t be made toward a man. This too is a byproduct of systemic misogyny.
If there are other women in the room, and there frequently are not - because - millennia of systemic misogyny - they too are unlikely to say anything and at best will display slight discomfort.
I - am required to brush off the joke lest I be viewed as over sensitive or too emotional - which undermines my credibility.
All of the above happens so frequently it’s barely noticed by most men. That’s how the “systemic” part works. And when the small things are simply accepted as the norm, the bigger aggressions also stay under the umbrella of accepted behavior.
I wouldn’t necessarily say complement, but definitely +1 on shaved Demi.
And I’ve shaved my head every year for the past 14 years to raise money for children’s cancer research through St Baldricks (and btw, if you would be so inclined to contribute, I would appreciate it and here’s where you can: Jim Vegeais | A St. Baldrick's Participant) and I gotta say that my experience is that #hot women shavees >> #women who look bad shaved.
But despite this, I could literally see that getting shaved (which is nowhere near as bad as not having a choice about losing your hair) is a FAR bigger deal for women than for men.
There was a thread I started a long time ago on the meaning of gender to each of us. I recommend skimming it.
The TLDR is that there is widely different conceptions among and between genders (no surprise there), and on the AO at least, a small trend that cis- and trans- women seemed to have more tied up in it than men and queer-women.
Having worked in a corporate world and in the educational field, I have never seen or heard such an atrocious and outwardly misogynistic joke, but I only entered the workforce 10-15 years ago and likely times have changed for the better. I firmly believe that if that joke had been made in that stretch of time, 99% of men in the room that I have worked with would call that joke out as absolute BS and the perp would be in the office with the HR rep that day. If you’ve had that happened to you, that sucks, and I’m sorry. I have a hard time believing that this sort of behavior is wildly seen in large corporate settings in 2022.
Huh? What’s long-term to you? I’ve been married >10 years and I am still very attracted to my wife.
I guess I’ll check back in 20 years and let you know how I’m doing then, but I’m not expecting my attraction to my wife to diminish, but to grow over time.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that women are more associated with long hair, and men with short. There are going to be exceptions of course, but at a bare minimum this is a widespread unconscious bias. To see what I mean, one can simply look at the hair options for building a Nintendo Mii character.
G.I. Jane is a pretty obvious derivation of a male character, so that’s one point. But if we’re actually talking about the military in general, just look at the Ukraine - woman and children are allowed to leave the country but the men are ordered to stay back and fight… doesn’t that have a bit of a masculine flair to it?
Some people are equating attractiveness with femininity - and further, they’re saying that it’s okay to compare Jada to G.I. Jane because she’s attractive. They’re both attractive (and nobody is arguing that), but then, where’s the joke?
The joke is that there is something different about Jada that isn’t considered “normal” - and that something is her short hair.
The jokes/comments are frequently subtle. They fly under the radar of most men.
They won’t be pointed out by men bc they aren’t noticed or aren’t considered worthy of thought much less words. And if they are pointed out by a woman - well, look how this thread went.
Systemic misogyny exists. Step 1 if you want to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem is: STFU and listen. Operate as though the perspective is valid - even if you don’t see it yet.
There are exceptions. But considering divorce rate is 50%, and then account for closet cheaters, or just people who stay in marriage and don’t want a divorce but don’t love each other, I estimate most long term couples just grow out of love.
Yeah, you are almost definitely missing it, or sheltered. I was in a meeting in the past month and someone told a women who leads a multi-billion dollar organization she needed to smile more.
Am woman, can confirm. Most of the men making these jokes are “nice guys” who would be offended to be told their comments are sexist or misogynistic. And, they are nice guys. I like them. They don’t mean to be hurtful. But they are.
There’s certainly misogyny, but there’s also just rude people who happen to be the opposite gender, especially from more senior people. Granted, more senior people are usually white male.
My ex skip-level boss once used a very derogatory tone to describe to the team how I raised a question to her. If the genders were switched I’m sure people would say that’s misogyny, but not when she’s the female and I’m the male.
I didn’t say sexism doesn’t exist. I just said I’ve never witnessed someone say something so sexist to a woman in a meeting. I am surprised to hear that it’s so prevalent in the places you guys work for. The companies I’ve worked for have primarily been small-medium in size, have many women in senior level management, and if there was a whiff of that kind of bullcrappery going on, I guarantee everyone would be aware of it and the rep of that person would be tarnished. Perhaps I’ve just worked for progressive places, but dudes who would talk like that about a woman would not be there long.
