I feel like there was a scene on this? One of the girls happens to see it as she passes by their room or something. 8 second blurb. I don’t remember which episode, maybe 3?
So those gold tops on the jump suits are collars (not just fashion choices), like they put on Engwene, that somehow make the wearers subservient?
So the fingernail dude is named Turok. So we have Liandrin, Turok, Suroth, and Ishmael as baddies who seem destined to fight amongst themselves for relative supremacy amongst the darkfriends.
Yes. I’m not sure what the gold pacifiers are for yet - those aren’t in the books.
Though in the books I think the collars are silver.
In the books, I would say no. In the show, I am going to say… probably not?
The Moraine/Lan story line has deviated so far from the books at this point that I’m not sure what’s going to happen there.
Is Suldam the black guy with the long fingernails?
The black guy with the fingernails is High Lord Turok, who currently leads the Seanchan in Randland.
In the show, suldam are the women behind the damanae. We have seen them shout orders and gesture when the damanae channel. I expect the show will go more into the relationship between suldam and damane in S2E6.
And what is the name of the woman that had her nails chopped off?
That was High Lady Suroth. It hasn’t been really explained (yet?) in the show, but in the books (no significant spoilers here) fingernails and the extent to which one shaves their head are symbols of where you stand in Seanchan nobility. Having her nails publicly chopped off was a humiliating way to take her down several pegs in front of the minor nobles and functionaries who witnessed the act.
And I think that S2E5 made clear that Liandran is Black Ajah (whilst still Red ajah too). So what are the relative positions of Ishmael, Liandran, and Shortened-Nails chick?
(The following spoils S2E5): In the show, Ishamael is the leader of the Forsaken. (In the books, the situation is more complicated and evolves.) In the books, he was the least-trapped of the Forsaken and therefore has been active to a certain extent in the world, including organizing darkfriends. If Lindarin and Suroth are darkfriends, then Ishamael is currently their boss.
(The following may spoil additional material): Lindarin is of course Black Ajah, and Suroth is a darkfriend. We suspect that they were two of the masked figures at the “darkfriend social” scene at the start of S2E1. In the books, we’re only certain of the identity of one of the DFS attendees…and I don’t remember that character having been introduced yet in the show.
BTW, if you want to have fun spotting Black Ajah, see if you can catch any of the Aes Sedai telling lies. I’ve spotted two clear lies so far, because I was watching for it and know who is Black Ajah from the books.
And the one green Aes Sedai with two warders, they are basically a throuple, right? They seem to be going to great lenghths to keep the sex content quite low in this show. GoT would have just shown those 3 in a bed somewhere, getting busy.
In the books, among Aes Sedai, only Greens are allowed to marry their warders. The Green you’re referring to in the show is a merger of at least two book characters, one of whom was rumored to have married more than one of her warders, and to have been particularly randy. In the show (I forget whether it was S2E4 or S2E5), we did see Nyneave walking in on them in bed.
(In the books, in most of Randland, monogamy is the social norm; this seems to be somewhat relaxed in the show. In the books, only among the Aiel is polyamory a norm.)
Robert Jordan was somewhat circumspect when it came to sex and sexuality in the books – there are only a couple of scenes that come close to being “sex scenes”, and even then they weren’t terribly graphic. There’s been more sex/sexuality in the show than there was in the book. (Of course Rand/Matt/Perrin/Egwene are older in the show than they were in the books.)
However, Robert Jordan had no issues with nudity, as part of his subplot of exploring how the standard relationship between “men” and “women” vary in different cultures. While there have been some boobs and bare butts in the show so far, it looks like the showrunners aren’t going to indulge the way the Game of Thrones showrunners would have. The WoT show has skipped over a couple of nude scenes in the parts of the books they’ve covered so far.
OK, again thanks for the 'splanations.
So the Forsaken and the Seanchan are sort of parallel groups, both in the service of the Dark One?
And a couple of questions about Padan Fain. He was originally shown to be a travelling trader that frequently visited Two Rivers and thus was known by the Group (Egwene, Rand, Mat, and Wolf Boy) well prior to the story. Was PF on to the fact that these 4 were “special” even before Moraine was there to check them out?
He hasn’t been around much this season. I assume he becomes a bigger character?
Also, what IS the deal with the Whitecloaks? They are so good that they’re bad?
And does High Lord Turok ever get to say “There is only one way!” I cannot wait for that to happen.
“There is only one way”
-Turok
Nope, only the Forsaken serve the Dark One. The Seanchan are just a separate population that want to rule the world. There are dark friends inside both populations.
Yeah, the group knew PF as a merchant prior to the start of the story. I would say it’s not clear when or if he knew the 4 main characters were special. He plays a decent sized role in the book, we’ll see what translates to the screen.
They are zealots who believe that if you don’t follow as strictly as them, or in the same way as them, then you must be darkfriends. They cause a lot of issues in the books.
OK, like born again Christians
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I only watched a few episodes when the show came out and hated it. Restarted over the weekend and got through the end of season 1 yesterday. May keep watching because it brought back good memories of the books, but the show annoys me so much.
And I forgot about Lanfear (fka Selene). Obv she is going to be a high level baddie. Does she know about Rand being the Dragon Reborn yet? Can we assume that she knows and that’s part of why Ishmael created (summoned?) her, to seduce Rand?
Season 1, particularly episodes 5-8, annoyed me.
Season 2 has been much better.
No. The Forsaken are powerful channelers effectively serving as direct minions of the Dark One on earth.
The Seanchan are just a group of people who are foreign to Randland.
A few details about the Seanchan from the books that are not yet known in the show, but which should not spoil the main story arc
There may a relationship between the Seanchan and Ishamael, but it’d be that of puppeteer and puppet.
In the books, the Seanchan got their start when Artur Hawkwing, a person who united/conquered almost all of Randland about 1000 years ago. He sent his son with an army across the ocean to the west of Randland, supposedly as a result of various manipulation by Ishamael. Hawking’s son successfully conquered the continent he found, creating the Seanchan.
They’ve appeared in Randland in the wake of signs and portents seen by their Empress (speculated to be manipulation by Ishamael), to prepare for the Last Battle. Since they have found Randland to be in chaos, having forgotten the order imposed by Artur Hawkwing, they are seeking to restore that order.
The Seanchan aren’t inherently evil, although there are darkfriends among them (just as there are in any group of humans). However, to inhabitants of Randland, the Seanchan are strangers with foreign ways who appear to be attempting to disrupt the status quo. Later on in the books, we see that people in Seanchan lands (both across the ocean and in areas of Randland that they occupy) mostly appreciate Seanchan rule, despite their strange customs.
And a couple of questions about Padan Fain. He was originally shown to be a travelling trader that frequently visited Two Rivers and thus was known by the Group (Egwene, Rand, Mat, and Wolf Boy) well prior to the story. Was PF on to the fact that these 4 were “special” even before Moraine was there to check them out?
Information about Padan Fain from the books, not yet known in the show...and which may not become canon in the show; information is for context and should not spoil the main story arc
In the books, Padan Fain is a special darkfriend.
In both books and the show, we Moiraine starts out hunting for the Dragon Reborn due to a prophecy made in the White Tower at the moment when he was born. (BTW, the snowy fight scene with the pregnant Aiel woman at the start of, I think, S1E6, is intended to show birth of the Dragon Reborn).
The Dark had their own prophecies, so they had a rough idea where the Dragon Reborn was being raised. Padan Fain was a peddler whose regular route passed through those areas. He was summoned to Shayol Ghul (the gates to the Dark One’s prison on earth) and…changed… to sniff out the Dragon Reborn. It took him a couple of tries (with visits to Shayol Ghul in between, to “distill” what he had experienced, and to refine his ability), but he eventually identified that the Dragon Reborn was among the Emond Fielders. (In the books, however, it’s just Rand, Matt, and Perrin that are special in that regard
He hasn’t been around much this season. I assume he becomes a bigger character?
More information from the books on Padan Fain which is a bit more spoiler-y
Many things about Padan Fain have been changed from the books to the show.
In the books, he is infected with the madness of Mashadar (from Shadar Logoth) via the dagger Matt took from there, as well as possibly the madness of Machin Shin (from the ways). This sets him apart from the run-of-the-mill evil of the darkfriends/Dark One/Forsaken, and he ends up pursuing his own interests independently. He is a very significant antagonist against Rand, Matt, and Perrin throughout the series, and that antagonism fuels several major plot points in the series.
The show, however, seems to be taking a different approach. The show’s Padan Fain is quite a bit more sane than the book version, and he seems so far to have a much closer relationship with Ishamael. I think it’s safe to assume that he is more significant in the show than run-of-the-mill darkfriends, but I have no clue just how much more of his story is being changed for the books.
Also, what IS the deal with the Whitecloaks? They are so good that they’re bad?
More information from the books; information that spoils the main story arc is hidden by discrete spoiler tags
There’s actually an encyclopedia of names/places from the Wheel of Time series called “The Wheel of Time Companion” which is accepted as canon for the books.
The WoT Companion has a better explanation than I can fabricate:
Children of the Light. A society of men who followed strict ascetic beliefs, owing allegiance to no nation and dedicated to the defeat of the Dark One and the destruction of all Darkfriends. Founded by Lothair Mantelar in FY1021 during the War of the Hundred Years to proselytize against an increase in Darkfriends, they evolved during the war into a completely military society. They considered Aes Sedai and any who supported them to be Darkfriends. Known disparagingly as Whitecloaks, a name they themselves despised, they were headquartered at the Fortress of Light in Amador, Amdicia, but were forced out when the Seanchan conquered the city. Their sign was a golden sunburst on a field of white, and the sunburst was displayed on their cloaks and tabards. An exception was the garb worn by the Hand of the Light (also referred to pejoratively as Questioners), a relatively independent investigative branch within the Chidren’s organization; their cloaks were adorned with a red shepherd’s crook behind the sunburst. Questioners reported to the High Inquisitor, who only wore the red shepherd’s crook, suggestive of his independent authority. The Children were a cavalry force, and their largest unit was a legion, which was roughly two thousand troops. Officers wore golden knots to indicate rank. The last known leader of the Children was Galad Damodred. They fought alongside the armies of the Light in the Last Battle.
In other words, they are part Knights Templar, part Fundamentalist Christian, and part Inquisitor from the Spanish Inquisition.
The information that follows was mostly revealed in S2E5. A material spoiler from the books is behind a discrete spoiler tag.
Lanfear is one of the Forsaken. In the books, she was one of the Aes Sedai researchers in the Age of Legends that opened the bore that released the Dark One from oblivion, marking the start of the War of Power. In addition to being someone whose name is dropped by Randland parents to scare children into behaving, not much is remembered about her, except she was very much in love with the Dragon, Lewis Therin.
“Lanfear” means “daughter of the night” in the Old Tongue. The alias she uses when introducing herself to Rand is Selene, referencing the moon in modern English. When she was released (in the books, the Foresaken are just released without fanfare, unlike what’s happening in the show), she very quickly became aware that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, and she was immediately infatuated with him, seeking to rekindle the romance she (in the books) never had. (In the show, it sounds like she was in a relationship with the Dragon before he met his wife.)
In the show, it’s not yet clear to how/when/why the Forsaken after Ishamael are being released. I assume that, as a practical matter, the showrunners are just drawing the process out for dramatic and budget reasons.
In the books, Lanfear is more pro-Rand than the other Forsaken.
OK, so this week was mostly about Egwene::Damane as Theon::Reek. It was not as powerful to me as Theon’s Reekification, nor as powerful as the Picard torture scene in episodes “Chain of Command” (“There are FOUR lights!”)
The Rand/Lanfear relationship is getting to be the best one on the show, amiright? I am not really too intrigued this week by anything happening to Moiraine, Loial, Mat, Min, Lan, Nyneave, and Suanne or Suiene or Szechuan, or whatever her name is.
I am kinda hoping Rand just falls for Lanfear and gives up Egwene. It’s the only romantic relationship that has any heat or chemistry to it.
I will say that I am getting things from you book reader guys to explain some things that I do not think are clear in the TV adaptation. It still plays out to me on TV that the Seanchan are in cahoots with the Forsaken. They certainly seem evil for evil’s sake and not just mild mannered/culturally different, with the A-damns and the Suldans and the “You’ll sing me a song and like it, beyotch!”.
And I was not clear about the confrontation with Lan and the two Warders that he’s hanging with. When I saw it I thought they might be coming out as Darkfriends. Maybe they were worried Lan was Darkfriend? The motivations played out in a kinda sloppy way on screen and I wasn’t sure what the conflict was really about. At first I thought he was just walking away from the noise of the 3 of them in the tent playing pickle tickle, so why were the other two so jumpy?
Stuff behind spoiler tags below answer a couple of questions based on what happens in future books, or my guesses in how the showrunners are going to reconcile show with books. While I don’t directly spoil major plot points, you might be able to guess a couple from my answers.
In the books, Lanfear’s hope of winning Rand over lasts until almost the very end, and Egwene’s and Rand’s paths do continue to diverge. In the books there are additional complications with Rand’s love life, but I’m not certain if/how they will adapt them for the show. Introducing a couple of those complications was something the books didn’t handle very well. (If only it were that easy in real life…)
I think that’s intentional, to add to the drama for the show. That being said…in the books, different chapters are narrated from different characters’ points of views. It isn’t until a few books in that we start getting chapters narrated from the Seanchan points of view that make it clear where they stand on the good versus evil front.
That confrontation wasn’t present in the books.
In the show, Lan is still keeping Moiraine’s secret about her quest to find the Dragon Reborn despite being separated from her; until the confrontation, only Moiraine, Verin, he, and Siuan know that’s what Moiraine’s been hunting.
He snooped around in Moiraine’s things when she was being secretive from him, and found the dark prophecy…so now he’s aware that Lanfear has been freed.
Alanna and her warders are treating Lan as they would any warder who has lost their bond with their Aes Sedai – they don’t trust them to not engage in self-harm. Thus they have no issues violating his privacy. So they find the prophecy in his things, and start to suspect that Lan’s a darkfriend, putting Lan in a position where he has to reveal what Moiraine’s been doing.
I’m just guessing here, but I think that revelation sets Alanna up for the show’s equivalent of a significant encounter between Alanna and Rand in Book 6, and/or provides evidence to Siuan’s opponents that she’s been inappropriately conspiring to keep secrets from the Tower, which in turn will create problems for Siuan in Book 4 / probably next season.
The scenes of Egwene’s initial training as damanae are significant for a few reasons.
- It highlights some of the horror of taking damanae
-
That horror, in turn, will become a very significant motivation for a few characters when a secret is revealed, I’m guessing, in S2E8.
- I don’t think I’m really spoiling anything by saying that in the books, all of the five Emonds Fielders become badasses; you’ve presumably seen or read enough fiction/fantasy to be able to predict that already. In Egwene’s case, I think they need to emphasize the horror that she’s going through in damane training to help explain how she’s growing from the village girl they’ve portrayed so far in the show to the badass that she’s going to become. (Egwene is my favorite character of the books, BTW…although Matt comes a close second.)
I can see where S2E6 was a bit slow and didn’t move things along quite as much as they’ve been moving in other episodes this season when viewed from the perspective of someone who hasn’t read the books. But I think that’s a necessary evil as the showrunners start setting the stage for the stuff that’s probably going to happen in S2E8…and really, WoT fandom would have rebelled if they didn’t torture Egwene this episode. The showrunners have been appeasing book fans with various easter eggs in the preceding episodes, but Egwene’s damane training was something they had to do right to be true to the WoT story.
Episode 6 was by far my favorite of the show so far. Absolutely loved it.
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I guess my perspective is this: I like this show but I don’t love this show so far. They need to do a better job of reeling in viewers like me that have not read the books.
Through a combination of unpolished scrips, poor casting, mediocre acting, bad directing and perhaps uninspired editing, there
The torture of Egwene was not as impactful as it should have been, because relatively little has been shown to make Non-Book Reading Viewers (NBRVs) care enough about her. She is one dimensional, ineffectual, and at this point she’s is more of a background character than a leading character. She is almost the equivalent of the random red-shirted ensign that gets to go to a new planet with Captain Kirk and Spock. I see how the book readers have more invested in the character because for them, she was more complete in her character. I’m team Lanfear. I like that cougar thing, and the Lanfear actress is able to portray “alluring” 1000x better than the actress playing Egwene. And the actor playing Rand certainly has had a good couple of years to “glow up” - he’s a lot more manly and way less boyish than he had been. He needs a woman, not a girl. Lanfear would be good for him.
I think the way to look at Egwene’s treatment in S2E6 is not that the torture is supposed to be impactful; it’s part of the kick in the butt that launches Egwene from being a somewhat unremarkable girl onto the path of future bad-assedness.
I get that without that context, someone new to the WoT wouldn’t appreciate that aspect, and I think that you’re not wrong that Egwene’s been shortchanged in character development in the show. The showrunners are trying to fit over 1100 pages of text, or 31 hours of audiobook, into 8 hours of TV show, and in the process they’ve cut a lot of the slow-burn character development of Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne.
That being said, think of the torture of Egwene being the proximate cause of (spoiler/conjecture, but I think it’s predictable given how shows with arcs go) Nyneave, Elayne, Perrin, Rand, and Matt (at least I assume they’ll bring him in)…and probably a couple of other folks…meeting up in Falme for a climactic finish to the season. Yes, it’s not as impactful as it would be if you knew Egwene’s story…but there’s only so much they can do given the constraints Amazon has imposed on the show (8 one-hour episodes per season, and a trajectory for 8 seasons).
Spoilers on the direction Rand's love life takes in the books lie within
I think it was cut from the show, but in Book 1, when Rand meets Min, Min says of him and Egwene, “You’re in love with her. She loves you, too, but she’s not for you, or you for her. Not the way you both want.” Egwene and Rand mutually agree to call it quits early in Book 4 (which is supposed to be the basis for Season 3). The show will probably polish Egwene up later on, but in the books, her path is first going to go someplace where polish isn’t appropriate.
In the books, Rand and Lanfear have a thing until the very end. It looks like the show is going to expand on that thing.
That being said, in the books Lanfear doesn’t end up being the loves of Rand’s life. That honor went to three other characters, and we have met all three in the show. However, I have no clue how about whether they’re going to preserve the full extent of the book’s polyamory. The show has already missed one of the relationship-starting hooks, and not shown another of those hooks (not that it was initially clear in the books). So… 
And no, none of the three are cougars. One of them, however, currently has an aesthetic that I prefer over Lanfear’s.
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You’re a darkfriend!
You should make this your avatar:
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