I would say one criticism I might have of teaching America’s evils is that many teach them as if America was uniquely evil. It’s important for people to also understand the full context of human history. America didn’t invent slavery. It’s been part of all human society for all of human history. Doesn’t make it right and doesn’t excuse America, but we focus a lot on the fact that people were willing to fight and die to keep slaves and not so much on the fact that there were people here willing to fight and die to end slavery and they won. America is neither an evil or good country, it’s only a collection of it’s individuals past and present and the actions they have chosen to take. The real lesson of American history to me is that we all are part of it and we have a voice in how our part of it will read in the future. It’s how we use that voice that determines where we go next.
Agree and the BC curriculum and our politicians discuss Canada’s past evils extensively. The BC curriculum also has lots of evil examples from other countries and does not pick on the US.
However I think the US sometimes gets unduly criticized by other countries because it proclaims itself as better than others: the self-proclaimed “city upon a hill”. That is a high standard and thus invites criticism when the standard is not met? Worse is that some Americans may actually believe their country is perfect whereas we all have evils we should confront.
There’s always going to be large amounts of history missing because there’s too much of it to cram in school. Blaming school for not including this or that has its limits.
At some point it’s up to each person to fill in their own gaps. And recognize that their worldview may need to be adjusted as new evidence of the past emerged. This is what should be emphasized.
Agree. I expect most of us in this thread will eventually learn, or have already learned, more history after finishing school than during our school years. And the history I learned 50+ years ago needs to be revisited as the perspective has evolved.
I agree. Before I’d complain about what they include/exclude, I would have to look at the entire course and probably compare multiple courses.
Also, modern schools are big on “critical thinking”. History is a good area to build ct skills. But, doing that reduces the amount of time they can spend on simple facts.
This is undoubtedly true.
I think and certainly hope, however, that a more common view is that we are not perfect. Our citizens may prefer us to every other country out there* while simultaneously believing that we have problems that need to be fixed. (There is probably wide disagreement about what those problems are and/or the best way to fix them, mind you.)
A common refrain is that America’s problems stop at our border. This is a common dynamic in family systems too. (“No one makes fun of my little brother but me!”) So outsiders may not always see through that.
*Similar to Churchill’s quip that Democracy is the very worst form of government… except for every other kind that’s ever been tried.
As a foreigner, I know I am walking on egg shells with any comments I make about Americans! However the folks on this thread have engaged positively with me so that has been appreciated.
At the end of the day, I also want the US to be as good as it can be so any comments I make are within that context, even when they are critical. I am much more critical of Canada’s shortcomings.
I don’t think that there’s all that much disagreement about what the problems generally are.
The disagreements start with the priority in which to address the list of problems.
And then the floodgates open when discussing how to fix them (let alone finding a “best” way). For example, the difference in addressing poverty will range from “government programs” to “increase job opportunities”.
I learned so little history in school (including college) that I have had to re-educate myself as an adult. There are still a lot of holes in my knowledge.
My eldest took AP European History from a teacher who understood the AP tests. She therefore has a thorough knowledge (helps that she has an amazing memory) so I lean on her for those sorts of questions. And on my husband for a lot of US history. And then I’ve learned a lot via reading, but mostly on the US side. (I did read a biography of Churchill during the WWII years but it mostly confused me.)
I will say that in spite of my very poor public education I did grow up believing slavery was beyond awful, and I was appalled at the treatment of the natives. No one had to tell me that was really awful stuff. I didn’t understand things like systemic racism nor how it shaped my thinking though.
I don’t think Americans agree that poverty is a societal problem. I think a lot of people think it’s a personal problem. Maybe not a majority, but I bets it’s close.
For some things. As you said, everyone agrees poverty is a problem and disagrees on the best way(s) to solve the problem.
But some people might say that there’s not enough access to abortion while someone else might say that there’s too much.
Or not enough/too much restrictions on gun purchases.
So it depends on the issue.
I think it’s better that every country focus on their own sins in detail because people have an automatic tendency to elevate their own tribe.
People automatically believe their own nation’s wars are just, that their own family is good guys, that other ideologies are immoral, that their religion is the only truth. It’s a “home-team” bias. You could call it loyalty or patriotism or something. And I think it should be tackled as much as that’s possible.
(I understand you’re probably responding to some more radical hot takes that would like to make America into a uniquely evil country. And I agree with you that we’re not uniquely evil.
However I think pride is a bigger a concern, because it’s central to all the evil that has ever been committed on the world stage.)
Yes I agree. I think a real picture of American history is important. I think the hard part here can be encapsulated in a simple exercise and the answer here is why we have so many arguments. The overwhelming majority of people think slavery is evil. Was George Washington evil because he owned slaves? That’s where it gets tricky and I think this is where history is ripe for contentious debate. It’s also an area where people get their feelings hurt and when feelings get hurt fight or flight is triggered. In that mode no one is changing anyone’s mind.
In normal times, I would say “that’s a fun game to play”. And it’s good for people to ask the question, regardless of their answer. It shows that people have doubt. And doubt is good. Doubt is what makes us question whether we are the “good guys”, when it comes to Vietnam, Iraq, etc. and it makes us less likely to be “bad guys”. It makes us less likely to engage in terrorism, develop and use WMDs, assassinate elected leaders, and install dictators.
And conversely, pride/loyalty is what drives the “bad guys” in war. Every crime against humanity was driven by pride. From Russia’s current war to the Holocaust and the Holodomor to Chattel Slavery and the White Man’s Burden.
That said, I think you are talking about something else. Which is that the US is in a very bad place. The Democrats hate Republicans and Republicans hate Democrats. And we hate each other so much, that maybe it doesn’t matter who is right about anything. I agree with that also.
I think most people would say that poverty is a problem–and agree with your statement here; but I would say that this statement would describe the view on the priority of addressing the problem, not on if there is a problem at all.
Good luck on having most Russians getting this sort of education.
To a degree, I agree. However, “patriotism” (one form of pride) is often the key quality needed to maintain a volunteer professional military force.
More often than not, those “contentious” debates often stem from an application of modern moralities to those historical times. Even worse, applying the view of “slavery” from 19th century America to what “slavery” was in Ancient Rome. (FTR, there was an evolution from the latter to the former over time; but “slavery” in the two time periods were extremely different.)
I strongly agree with this statement but there is a major difference for the US. Its actions affect other countries to a far greater degree than any other country. Thus every country has an interest in how the US addresses its problems.
There is a huge ripple effect on my own country by US actions culturally, economically and politically. And unfortunately we import both the good and the bad from the US!
Isn’t this the only reason historical teaching would ever change? I mean the facts are the facts. The only thing that changes as things get further and further back is modern morality which changes our perception of the facts.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re arguing here. That pride is necessary to keep an army? I agree it reduces the cost of an army, and that armies are necessary. But I don’t think we need the reduced cost. We can just pay more, or keep a smaller army.
We can afford to be more moral, imo.
A related issue is as to when various countries decided slavery was no longer acceptable. Many countries abolished slavery before the US did and it took a civil war to end it in the US. That may be partially why slavery in the US is viewed more negatively.