Polarization of Congress

edited your post to relate to the thread title

Consider that no less significant figure than paul ryan can claim to be a devout catholic, but also deeply admire ayn rand. This despite the fact that, philosophically and morally, iā€™m not sure you can pick anybody more opposed to the spirit of catholicism that rand. It defies philosophical coherence and consistency, but, empirically, there it is.

So while i have sympathy for your points here, Iā€™m not sure it matters. Libertarianism seems to be an integral part of american conservatism.

Democrats need to claim libertarians on their side. I think they would agree on more real policy than with Republicans.

I think Libertarianism has been in decline since US parties and US voters aligned themselves on education. They used to be the more elite / educated wing of the Republican party, but now the Republican party is anti-education and anti-elite.

I donā€™t think democrats can claim them either though, since democrats want to be anti-billionaire. They just have no place.

Iā€™m a small-ell libertarian (diluted by pragmatism), although itā€™s gotten tougher for me to use the ā€˜libertarianā€™ label due to some others seemingly using libertarianism as a way to excuse some pretty horrible stances.

I canā€™t support the GOP in large part because of its intrusive social stances.
I canā€™t support the Democratic Party in large part because of their big-government stances.
I canā€™t support the big-ell Libertarian Party because itā€™s too heavily influenced by some folks who are frigginā€™ nutsā€¦but despite this, I tend to vote for LP candidates when theyā€™re an option on the ballot.

1 Like

Iā€™m not sure how any of this contradicts my point, which was that supporting gay marriage is not a conservative position.

Because the OP refers to an empirical definition of conservative/liberal. Itā€™s basically a cluster analysis of voting patterns. It doesnā€™t seem to support the claim that libertarianism and conservatism are empirically separate. This is despite the fact, as you point out, that they are conceptually different, or even (as i claim) seemingly opposed to each other. And people like paul ryan show that this amalgam can exist not just as a coalition between different voters, but as a single set of beliefs in a single person.

So iā€™m not contradicting what you are saying, under a particular definition of conservative. But i think itā€™s beside the point, empirically, or even at odds with empirical evidence.

Iā€™m not sure. Thomas Massie might qualify, but he is still anti-gay marriage.

Libertarianism just isnā€™t appealing to most people in America for various reasons.

What confuses me is why the evangelical/religious groups in this country donā€™t fall into a category that is the exact opposite of Libertarians. The Bible doesnā€™t like wealthy people, it supports paying taxes, and it has strong messages about helping and caring about the lowest member of society. So where are the Christians who are fiscally liberal and socially conservative?

There are some who would argue otherwise, FWIW.

Yeah now that Justin Amash is out of congressā€¦ and even before he officially switched parties he was pretty Libertarian in outlook. But heā€™s not there any more.

I read twitter, and I think this at times. Then I realize that itā€™s only a handful of congress people that have the twitter megaphone.

But I still worryā€¦

I struggle to understand this too. Historically, it dates to an alliance starting especially in the Eisenhower years between business interests trying to push back the new deal, and various churches and church leaders, such as billy graham.

If you believe the histories that america transitioned from an emphasis on individuality in the 19th century to an emphasis on social responsibility after industrialization, then i supposed that kind of libertarianism is conservative on the shorter time scale.

I think this political coalition must have had an effect in conservative christianity itself. The southern baptist convention supported roe in the late 1979s, for example. And with its extremely decentralized church government structure, it is strange bedfellows with so called ā€œchristian nationalism.ā€ But decades of conservative media seems to have worked wonders.

A lot of the african american community could probably be called this. Iā€™d guess many parts of the latino/hispanic population too.

I think most Christians with hard political beliefs have them because of abortion. There are people that cannot get past that so they go along with every other single thing that Republicans say because they think anyone that would support abortion is a murderer. Thatā€™s really how about 20% of our country feels. Thatā€™s a strong base of unwavering support in our political environment especially given that the entire bunch will show up every time the polls open.

Yeah. So they would be fiscally conservative. But what stops them from supporting increased funding for social programs? You think theyd support that?

They would not support peeling any of them back because they like them, but would not support expansion because of the people proposing it.

So basically, Christians prefer vengeance against their opponents than loving/caring for their neighbors?

Cool cool cool cool

Also, they certainly align themselves with politicians who want to strip away social programs. So I disagree with your claim that they would not support peeling any of them back, because they vote for people who actively do it.

1 Like

I think the other side of this is the decline of many mainline, more liberal churches.

And a lot of progressive or liberal causes are no longer being presented primarily in religious language.

Related to this is the belief that secularism and religion are in opposition, which historically has not been this popular. Many of the more conservative churches were historically champions of separation of church and state.

For an average Christian voter social programs are down their list of priorities. Itā€™s not a priority. Itā€™s like a nice to have. Also most churches have food pantries and giveoney away. They feel like we should take care of our own and not be reliant on the government. Taking care of yourself is also a Christian principle.

The priority is abortion should be gone. I get that you a liberal voter think social programs are very important, but to conservative voters they are not that important. Donā€™t be mystified when they donā€™t respond to those policies with votes.

The belief that private charities are more efficient / effective than government-funded programs, in many cases.

No. They think that they do a better job of taking care of their neighbors than the government does.

1 Like