Probably should just go back to the other thread, or make a new one. Jsm’s pov is not really about trans anyway, it’s that gender segregation is creepy for the same reason race segregation was creepy, and that the sensation of making ‘the team’ isn’t worth the creepiness.
I half agree, though again I think there would be rioting in the street if you took that sensation away.
Yeah, good point. About to do this.
@John.S.Mill I’d like your take on athletics. In my earlier (lengthy) post, I slipped by it wrt schools. Left it at Nasty. It’s an aspect which confounds me.
One on hand, I think a fairly large part of the benefit from sports is found in how it builds discipline, ambition, teamwork. These are values that come in very handy in life. Don’t wish to deny trans people from enjoying those benefits.
On the other hand, there is room for a lot of gaming the system. When a 14 or 15 boy yo boy claims to be eligible for the girls swim team because they are trans…what are we to do? Simply taking them at their word opens the door to the gaming. But what possible evidence can be produced? I cannot read their mind. So is he trans or does he think he is trans because he is sexually attracted to other boys. How are we to know?
And I’ll go on record early saying I am very much against 15 year olds enjoining any medical therapies to transition. Folks that age are not capable of weighing the consequences.
I’ve been consistent on this forum.
Anything that resembles separate but equal is discriminatory in my book. Yes, that is to say, I’m against having men’s and women’s sports.
There was a case for women’s sports in the past, since they were not even allowed to play sports (well they weren’t allowed to do most things), but there’s no longer a case for that. The case now is the competitive edge that men have. To create “sports” around competitive advantage is an endless rabbit hole, and inevitably leads to discrimination. This is further compounded by the current controversy surrounding the (discrimination against) trans community.
If you are going to have women’s sports, then you must have black sports, and white sports, and asian sports. You see where this is going.
Well that just won’t work for me. School sports teams are not " everyone makes the team".
The injustice is overwhelming. Denying virtually all women the opportunity to enjoy the benefits of athletic competition seems purposefully hurtful, even though it is in pursuit of an idealized equality.
You won’t be denying all women. Especially at the high school level. I was probably worse at sports than many sporty girls when I was in high school.
I mean, sure, it seems terrible that you’re denying the opportunity for many women the top spots. But keep in mind, that’s because we’ve had a deeply complicated relationship with sex and gender in human history.
At its core, some people are just innately better at sports due to being genetic freaks. This is not new. Black people are overwhelmingly better at running than asians, for example. I would’ve never made the varsity high school team at any sport. Just like some jocks will never pass a calculus class no matter how hard they try. And that’s fine.
The moment you start to segregate, is the moment you run into more issues.
Yes, you will.
Sure there will be the occasional girl that makes the soccer or track and field team. But will be the exception, not the rule. And when the team bus gets to Peoria to play an away game…is she expected to suck it up and head to the visitors locker room? I cannot picture this happening. Does she dress on the bus? Because there are currently only two locker rooms, and the home team uses one.
She is most definitely under way more duress than the others, and has limited opportunity to enjoy the team aspects. That’s a big deal.
And plenty of sports have separate but equal categories. Boxing, weightlifting.etc. But let’s not fantasize that HS basketball teams are going to have many girls make the cut. It’s not gonna happen.
And to me that’s fine. Everyone is physically different. This is NOT the same as denying women the opportunity to play sports because they’re women.
Sports is a game, and it’s highly correlated with your innate physical ability to play the game. It’s the same as being a model. Some people are just better looking (although we’ve found a way to fix this through the marvels of plastic surgery). To complain that you can’t be a model because you’re born ugly and thus you need there to be an “ugly modeling agency” for things to be fair to the ugly people of this world is nonsensical.
At the same time, because sports is a game, anyone can make any rules. I think making rules based on segregation is problematic, whether it be race, gender, or any other protected class, even though there is statistical and physical/biological reasons to do so.
You seem to be arguing against yourself now. The clear solution is to ignore any self identification of sex/gender and let the chips fall where they may. Have men’s and women’s teams. Try out for the squad you hope to join and have at. Gender specific divisions allow for maximum participation. Win-win
I Certainly agree with one of your premises: nobody has a right to make the team.
How so?
Well that’s certainly the first step. But why stop there?
Why is gender more important than say, height? or weight? Or hormone levels? Like you said, many sports already segregate on these, so why only by gender in HS?
And maximum controversy right now.
Because it roughly doubles the number of teams and participants
Why is that number significant?
I’ve been clear on the benefits to the participants. They have not changed
There are clearer benefits to the participants if you segregate by things that actually matter to sports. Gender is simply a proxy, and as we see now, causes tremendous controversy.
What controversy beyond the topic at hand: trans participants? Which I’ve said confounds me.
That’s it. That’s more controversy than segregating say, by height or weight.
Not so sure. Lotsa controversy over weigh ins. Sometimes outright fist fights.
Okay, but that’s not a definitional controversy, just a measurement/cheating controversy.
Voter fraud controversy is not the same controversy as counting only 3/5 of a person’s vote
I think you are conflating controversy and criticism. I am not aware of the controversy among cis women regarding separate sports leagues. Nor cis men.
And I think we both agree that there is no right to make the teams. That is not a civil right. Just like I do not have a right to sing like Freddy Mercury.