# AOC: Pros and Cons **URL:** \ **Category:** Political Topics\ **Created:** [July 14, 2022, 3:16am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121 "2022-07-14T03:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![soyleche](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/soyleche/32/42_2.png) [@soyleche](https://community.goactuary.com/u/soyleche)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:51am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/21 "2022-07-14T04:51:34Z")
> [@AcademicActuary](#): > > But I don’t like MTG so I guess we all have our biases. To be fair, she is certifiably insane… ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:36am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/22 "2022-07-14T05:36:10Z")
I mean, here’s a jumping off point. [https://www.heritage.org/budget-and-spending/commentary/the-green-new-deal-lousy-deal-americans](https://www.heritage.org/budget-and-spending/commentary/the-green-new-deal-lousy-deal-americans) No domestic air travel is absurd. High speed rail can reach a peak speed of about 200 mph, and the average speed, including stops at intermediate points, is much much slower. That’s fine for NYC to Boston (215 miles) or even LA to San Francisco (425 miles) where the difference in time between high speed rail vs airplane is maybe an hour or two. But what if you’re going 3,300 miles (as the crow flies) from Seattle to Miami? Even if we imagine a hypothetical high speed train with ZERO stops along the way taking an extremely direct route and no slowing down for any mountains (completely ludicrous) we’re talking about something in the vicinity of 17 hours. Given that stops, and less-than-perfectly-straight-routes, and mountains are all actual things that exist and will slow such a train down, realistically I doubt you could actually make such a trip in 24 hours (see a better calculation in the next post). You can fly from SEA to MIA in under 6 hours. That’s a pretty massive difference. So yeah, that’s beyond stupid. AOC herself flies when she’s only going as far as Texas. I guess it’s a case of “do as I say, not as I do”. (To be fair, the non-high-speed train takes 54 hours. Maybe the high-speed one would only take 18 hours and possibly AOC would be happy to spend that kind of time traveling one-way instead of a 3.5 hour flight.) Also, worth noting is that she flew first class despite that having a larger carbon footprint than coach. Forcing everyone into electric vehicles is considerably worse given the currently unworkable-for-most-road-trips charging time. That’s just going to result in more air travel which is a bigger polluter per seat mile than a single-occupant ICE vehicle. Especially if I can’t fly non-stop between two US destinations and thus have to do something crazy like fly from home to London to my domestic destination because non-stop is no longer available thanks to her Green New Deal. (Still faster than her high speed rail.) ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 5:41am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/23 "2022-07-14T05:41:48Z")
Digging deeper, the Acela train has a _top_ speed of 150 mph and it takes 3.75 hours to make the 215 trek from NYC to Boston for an _average_ speed of about 57 mph or 38.2% of the top speed. If the Seattle to Miami train went 38.2% of 200 mph that would be an average speed of 76.4 mph and it would take over 43 hours to make that trip by high speed rail. Not even accounting for non-straight routes. Add in something for that and it’s probably at least 48 hours. 48 hours … instead of 6. Yeah, I’m sure there will be a **lot** of takers. 🙄 38.2% of maximum speed might be too fast given the fact that there are much bigger mountains in the way. And the stops will presumably be just as long too. So really even my 48 hour estimate is probably too low. Probably the average distance between stops will be longer so that would potentially offset. Suffice it to say that high speed rail is a crap-ton slower than flying for cross-country trips. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:42am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/24 "2022-07-14T06:42:47Z")
A summary of California’s foray into high speed rail. > **[Train to nowhere: can California’s high-speed rail project ever get back on...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/29/california-high-speed-rail-bullet-train)** > > Despite 14 years of work and about $5bn spent, the 2008 promise of quick transport between Los Angeles and San Francisco has not materialized If you don’t care to click links, the TLDR version is: > [@](#): > > The California project is still technically up and running, but it is so far behind schedule that it has yet to lay a single mile of track, despite 14 years of work and about $5bn spent. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:54am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/25 "2022-07-14T06:54:48Z")
And that one seemed like a _good_ idea. Replacing 100% of air travel within the 48 contiguous states with high speed rail does not. ---
**Author:** ![Nick\_Papagiorgio](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/nick_papagiorgio/32/451_2.png) [@Nick\_Papagiorgio](https://community.goactuary.com/u/Nick_Papagiorgio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 10:22am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/26 "2022-07-14T10:22:20Z")
She’s too close to communism. It doesn’t work, never will. Let it go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/the_president/32/70075_2.png) [@The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/u/The_President)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 11:34am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/27 "2022-07-14T11:34:14Z")
I could be wrong but i don’t think AOC had any expectation that GND would pass. Proposals like that i think are intended to generate discussions, to take what is realistic or low hanging fruit from the list and make it law. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 11:38am UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/28 "2022-07-14T11:38:01Z")
Perhaps, but AcademicActuary didn’t “see anything so terrible” about GND and that’s who I was responding to. Well him and Triweasel who asked me what I didn’t like about GND. ---
**Author:** ![funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/funkingded/32/83398_2.png) [@funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/u/funkingded)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:03pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/29 "2022-07-14T12:03:01Z")
> [@twig93](#): > > She [AOC] just strikes me as someone who would rather be angry than live in reality. a quote from a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/the_president/32/70075_2.png) [@The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/u/The_President)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:03pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/30 "2022-07-14T12:03:43Z")
I didn’t see “eliminate domestic flights” in what AA posted. I did find “flight shaming” in a google search back to an article from 2019. CA has to be one of the worst states for an initial proof of value on high speed rail. A serious proposal would link multiple cities across the Midwest and make them as accessible between cities as those that are much closer in the NE. > [@twig93](#): > > “do as I say, not as I do” This is overused. It’s hard to take a high speed train that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/the_president/32/70075_2.png) [@The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/u/The_President)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:04pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/31 "2022-07-14T12:04:12Z")
This post has a lot of opportunity for improvement. ---
**Author:** ![PatientZombie](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/patientzombie/32/391_2.png) [@PatientZombie](https://community.goactuary.com/u/PatientZombie)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:07pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/32 "2022-07-14T12:07:27Z")
i see her (and many of the progressives) as more idealistic than realistic. and unwilling to compromise, even on things moving in the right direction ---
**Author:** ![The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/the_president/32/70075_2.png) [@The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/u/The_President)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/33 "2022-07-14T12:08:57Z")
In general: we are getting pretty screwed by climate change right now, and it is only going to get worse. We aren’t going to save the world unless some new technology comes along since getting global cooperation with developing nations is not going to happen, and we realistically can only do so much. So now what? What can we do, will it matter, and will we benefit from something even if the Earth eventually burns up anyway? Is it worth the cost? There are plenty of opportunities in the list that AA posted that would make the US better. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/34 "2022-07-14T12:10:54Z")
Yeah, a lot of Republicans do it too. Especially in the last five years, but it’s been getting progressively worse for a while. ---
**Author:** ![funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/funkingded/32/83398_2.png) [@funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/u/funkingded)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:11pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/35 "2022-07-14T12:11:30Z")
Overton window. In the American corporatocracy anything less than indentured servitude/slavery for the people is considered too idealistic. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:12pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/36 "2022-07-14T12:12:25Z")
> [@The\_President](#): > > It’s hard to take a high speed train that doesn’t exist. Do you truly believe that AOC would take a ~20 hour high speed train from NYC to Austin if it existed, rather than a 3.5 hour flight? ---
**Author:** ![funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/funkingded/32/83398_2.png) [@funkingded](https://community.goactuary.com/u/funkingded)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:13pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/37 "2022-07-14T12:13:23Z")
> [@The\_President](#): > > getting global cooperation with developing nations is not going to happen, As in they won’t be our bitch and whore for us so we just keep raping them. ---
**Author:** ![twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/twig93/32/527_2.png) [@twig93](https://community.goactuary.com/u/twig93)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/38 "2022-07-14T12:18:22Z")
> [@The\_President](#): > > I didn’t see “eliminate domestic flights” in what AA posted. My objections to GND go beyond what AA posted. From the link I posted: > [@](#): > > the FAQ clarifies the scale of these statements: “Build (electric vehicle) charging stations everywhere;” “build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary;” “affordable public transit available to all;”replace every combustion-engine vehicle.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/the_president/32/70075_2.png) [@The\_President](https://community.goactuary.com/u/The_President)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/39 "2022-07-14T12:18:57Z")
If i can ignore your assumptions that are doom and gloom on the idea and say if it took \<10 hours i think yes, she would take the train. I don’t think using the acela train as a starting point is what she is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Nick\_Papagiorgio](https://community.goactuary.com/user_avatar/community.goactuary.com/nick_papagiorgio/32/451_2.png) [@Nick\_Papagiorgio](https://community.goactuary.com/u/Nick_Papagiorgio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121/40 "2022-07-14T12:22:09Z")
Not really. She’s idealistic and her ideas would include significant disruption to the status quo. We don’t do government forced status quo changes in America. They can happen from innovations in the economy, but by and large we have never accepted the type of government intervention into our lives and choices that she proposes. If AOC is the future of the Democratic party than this political board is going to be in for many years of hand wringing and wondering why Democrats just can’t win elections because Republicans in nationwide and statewide elections will slaughter candidates like her at the polls. [Previous page](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121.md?page=1) [Next page](https://community.goactuary.com/t/aoc-pros-and-cons/6121.md?page=3)